Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

Last weekend a dealer at the Bellagio said that Phil Hellmuth and Annie Duke chopped the $2 million free roll Tournament of Champions event that was aired on ESPN. Does anyone have any insight on this? It completely makes sense that a side deal would be made given the fact that second place paid $-0-. I think it would be in both players best interest to make a deal. Why would anyone want to walk away empty handed when they could be guaranteed $1,000,000, or whatever agreed upon amount. I've heard that Harrah's has tried to discourage this practice, but as far as I know there hasn't been any real consequences established, such as, banning people from future events, imposing monetary sanctions, etc.

If it’s true, I can understand why certain parties wouldn't want things like this to become public knowledge. The integrity of the televised event might be jeopardized. It seems, however, that such a deal would just be a sound financial decision for the players as long as there are no real consequences. I think anyone would take a guaranteed payday of $1 million in that situation regardless of the opponent, or their skill level, when the result of losing would be walking away empty-handed. Therefore, I don't think it's a knock on any of the players involved if it's true. Has anyone heard anything about this?

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

Hi Any2,

Annie has said on this forum that there was no deal. You can search for posts by her for the info. Now, I suppose you can say she was lying, and that the dealer at the Bellagio knows the real story. I suspect the dealer was just talking through his/her hat.

Cris

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

I don't think anyone wants to call Annie a liar, but IF there was a deal, do you actually think Annie would come right out and say so?

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

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I don't think anyone wants to call Annie a liar, but IF there was a deal, do you actually think Annie would come right out and say so?

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No.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

This is pure speculation, but I'm guessing that ESPN made all of them sign an agreement not to make any such deals in order to keep things interesting.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

World Poker Tour makes everyone sign these but I witnessed deals. Well before the final table but there were still deals.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

It is common knowledge that most high-limit pros confide possible prize-jeopardizing information to dealers at any casino they play in, who, in turn, disseminate said information to random people they deal cards to.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

I would think it's interesting enough on the merit of having world-class players play with their pride on the line.

Perhaps I'm odd, but a winner-take-all prize structure doesn't mean anything to me as a spectator. Sure, it definitely affects strategy, but since the show is so condensed...it's tough to see WHEN the strategy changes happened.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

Well, at the very least the winner take all prize structure encouraged a good old fashion Phil Hellmuth tirade [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

That said, I wouldn't believe they cut a deal until I saw the evidence. The fact that it was winner take all changed everyone's strategies, most notably Daniel Negreanu's. If he knew he could cut a deal with Duke or Hellmuth by coming in 2nd to make a million bucks, he wouldn't have played so many pots and tried (unsuccessfully) to get such an early big chip lead. Even Hellmuth played to win, not get second. If Duke says there wasn't a deal, and if the other players would be hella mad if there was, I believe there wasn't a deal.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

And why does Hellmuth curse up a storm when he loses? This is just idle chatter...a friend of a friend that knows...type crap.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

Actually some other dealer at the Bellagio told me that all 10 of em split the price pool 10 ways and then decided to play a few theatrical hands for TV. I mean, come on, Annie calling all-in with 66 against big bro Howard, and then catching? And then a tearful apology? That was horrible poker. But it was good TV. It was all set-up. Kinda like pro-wrestling.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

Well, I would have to guess that the prize money is not tax free and taxes would have to be paid on the winnings. The tax forms would be filled out in the winners name and that person would have to pay the taxes. Now if I cut a side deal with some other player and I won, I think I would be in for all the taxes on the the total prize and they would have money tax free. A tax accountant could clear this up.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I would have to guess that the prize money is not tax free and taxes would have to be paid on the winnings. The tax forms would be filled out in the winners name and that person would have to pay the taxes. Now if I cut a side deal with some other player and I won, I think I would be in for all the taxes on the the total prize and they would have money tax free. A tax accountant could clear this up.

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Wow, excellent reasoning. There must not have been a deal because nobody's bright enough to make a deal using after tax numbers. By the way I'm a CPA. And it's not tough calculating the tax on the prize money when both parties are already in the highest tax bracket.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

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I don't think anyone wants to call Annie a liar, but IF there was a deal, do you actually think Annie would come right out and say so?

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No. But do you think she would come right out and say there wasn't?

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

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It is common knowledge that most high-limit pros confide possible prize-jeopardizing information to dealers at any casino they play in, who, in turn, disseminate said information to random people they deal cards to.

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Well said, I agree. In addition, Annie said that there was no deal. I'll beleive Annie over a random card dealer.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

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Well said, I agree. In addition, Annie said that there was no deal. I'll beleive Annie over a random card dealer.

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Haven't your mother taught you to never trust a poker player???

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is common knowledge that most high-limit pros confide possible prize-jeopardizing information to dealers at any casino they play in, who, in turn, disseminate said information to random people they deal cards to.

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I don't know if you've ever been to the Bellagio, or not, but the same dealers deal to the $3,000/$6,000 game as well as all the other games. So they have the ability to over hear conversations. I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm just not willing to discount something that seems entirely plausible. At the time I didn't care enough to ask the dealer how he came about this information, or whether it was just speculation on his part. It's just that a subsequent discussion with a friend led to this post.

As for this: [ QUOTE ]
most high-limit pros confide possible prize-jeopardizing information to dealers

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Maybe you could tell me how such a deal would jeopardize the prize money. As I previously stated, I don't believe there are any real consequences to prevent such deals. And if there were, I'm not quite sure they would be enforceable in court. The only enforceable action that I could think of would be to prevent the parties from taking part in future events if that were written into the agreements. But again, I haven't seen these agreements, nor do I have any first hand knowledge of this stuff. If Annie Duke said she didn't chop it then that's good enough for me. I am just curious how anyone could be sitting there playing for $2 million with at best a 60% chance of winning (I believe they were close to equal in chips at one point and I don't think either would believe that they are that much better than the other to account for more than a 10% advantage) and not make a deal when they're facing a good possibility that they will walk away empty handed. Does anyone have any solid information on why this wouldn't occur?

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

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I am just curious how anyone could be sitting there playing for $2 million with at best a 60% chance of winning (I believe they were close to equal in chips at one point and I don't think either would believe that they are that much better than the other to account for more than a 10% advantage) and not make a deal when they're facing a good possibility that they will walk away empty handed. Does anyone have any solid information on why this wouldn't occur?

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Honor? I'm not saying they wouldn't make a deal, and I have no idea if they did, but they agreed not to make deals. While that clearly doesn't preclude deal-making, the fact that that means nothing is sorta sad

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

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Honor? I'm not saying they wouldn't make a deal, and I have no idea if they did, but they agreed not to make deals. While that clearly doesn't preclude deal-making, the fact that that means nothing is sorta sad

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Good point, but I think there's more than a few people that would sell their soul for a million dollars. Let alone their honor, or their word. Not to say that either of these two are among those people. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

I'm still envisioning all ten players arriving at the horseshoe, saying hello to each other, spliting the prize pool ten ways, and each pro walking out a couple minutes later with $200,000 a piece.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

because i'm fairly sure ESPN and WSOP had a "no deals" rule in place, and, since it was $$$ put up by ESPN, i'm also sure they can enforce that as they so choose, including rescinding said prize and not allowing participants in the deal to play again in next year's freeroll. I guarantee they all signed a contract that stated as much that would be PLENTY enforceable in court. Since ESPN put up the $$, i have no problem with this. WPT has same/similar rule which I understand but think is BS, since the players put up all the $$$.

Quit being so naive.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

private joker:Daniel Negreanu siad that he doesn't make deals. I saw this in one of his articles a while ago

37 offsuit:Hellmuth was pissing and moaning because ESPN told him to, plain and simple. Don't you think Phil cussing and bitching is funnier to watch than Phil shaking ahnds with Annie and saying "Nice job"?

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

Even if there was a deal, no one could prove it. And it would not matter because helmuth woulk dstill not want to lose to anyone, especially on tv and especially to a lady.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

May explain Phils grammy winning performance when he lost, it seemed to over the top even for Phil. I agree that if there was a deal I wouldn't think Annie would admit to it.
Deals happen all the time.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

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And why does Hellmuth curse up a storm when he loses? This is just idle chatter...a friend of a friend that knows...type crap.

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I curse up a storm when I lose a small pot if I suffer a bad beat. I call it being competitive.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

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Well, I would have to guess that the prize money is not tax free and taxes would have to be paid on the winnings. The tax forms would be filled out in the winners name and that person would have to pay the taxes. Now if I cut a side deal with some other player and I won, I think I would be in for all the taxes on the the total prize and they would have money tax free. A tax accountant could clear this up.

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If they made a deal, the card room would put the unofficial prize amount on the respective players' W2G's. The official prize money (for example Annie Duke 1st place "2 million") would not matter for tax purposes.

Using a small, but relevant example: At a recent live tourney I was in before the cards were dealt to the final table (which had ten players although only nine would cash--go figure...) somebody suggested that we take a small amount off of each place and give that to what would offficially be the unpaid tenth player. We all agreed. Our W2G's showed only what we won, but the results showed what would have been listed had the agreement to fund the tenth place not been made.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

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Maybe you could tell me how such a deal would jeopardize the prize money.

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Sure thing. If there's evidence that they made a deal, they have to give back their prize money.

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As I previously stated, I don't believe there are any real consequences to prevent such deals. And if there were, I'm not quite sure they would be enforceable in court.

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Of course there are, and of course they would be.

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I am just curious how anyone could be sitting there playing for $2 million with at best a 60% chance of winning (I believe they were close to equal in chips at one point and I don't think either would believe that they are that much better than the other to account for more than a 10% advantage) and not make a deal when they're facing a good possibility that they will walk away empty handed.

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If they get caught making a deal, they both walk away empty handed.

Which means they probably wouldn't be openly discussing any deal at the Bellagio for your dealer to have overheard.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

He said, she said, they all said. All hearsay. Was this hearsay dealer actually dealing the game with Annie and Phill?

Do you think ESPN would risk their reputation and get involved in such a deal? Hmmm...Come to think about it?

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

Hey..., the dealer also said the world was coming to an end yesterday. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

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Do you think ESPN would risk their reputation and get involved in such a deal?

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What reputation? Rep for broadcasting bratty kids acting like total jerks at the WSOP? Rep for allegedly manufacturing hands (according to Paul Phillips)?

To say that ESPN would not allow chopping is giving them a big benefit of the doubt.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

This has been a problem that has plagued top level chess since 1948. In the U.S. it's grandmaster draws in the final rounds of large open tournaments and on the top few boards - usually pretty quick affairs, to guarantee that one doesn't finish "down" in the money, usually employed by pro chess players. Incidentally, pro chess players make alot less than poker players, for a game that is at least equally mentally and strategically tough. That's another topic for another day, though. The above scenarios have been handled largely in Europe and Asia by giving the players' "appearance fees", which help cut down on that sort of thing. The prize becomes fund less important than the prestige of winning an important tournament. Note that this doesn't usually apply to large open tournaments, but in invitationals where only the top-level grandmasters are participating.

For something like the champs freeroll, I would think that many of the players did receive some form of compensation, since about all of them (as I remember it) play poker for a living. I believe that this was brought up by one the commentators. No proof if they did receive appearance fees from, just observation of analogous game problems. If they did get appearance fees, then I doubt that the whole table got a peice of the pool (as was suggested by a previous poster). However, Brunson's weird blind plays were well... weird. If they didn't get fees, then I still doubt that the whole table was involved.

As far as Annie and Phil splitting the prize? I hope they did. If they did, then it means that the paticipants were doing it for the "title", rather than the money, which makes better TV for me.

Oh, and just for the record. I don't think they chopped it. I think the odds of them getting appearance fees are better than the odds against.

Helmuth rant a farce?!
 

Do you honestly believe that the ridiculous display of whining and ranting at the end of the event was just for show???????? Furthermore, that Helmuth would make the couple of huge laydowns that he did, and then be so obviously bothered by Annie's showing him the 9 in the top pair vs two pair hand if they had made a deal?

Sorry, I don't buy it. Nothwithstanding the fact that Annie has demonstrated that she plays absolutely above board, and she denied that a deal took place, I don't think Phil is that good an actor.

It would not however surprise me to learn that Phil wanted and tried to make a deal, and Annie said no in keeping with espn's terms. Phil seems to be playing on a short bankroll. That or he has just become and incredible crybaby.

Regards-

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

Here's an interesting quote from Negreanu's CardPlayer article this week. Hmmmmm....

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On the break, I was feeling pretty good about making a comeback, and my focus was intensifying. I was chatting with Phil Hellmuth, and he said, “No offense, Daniel, but I have to root against you tonight.”

“Fair enough, Phil, but why is that?”

“Well, because as soon as you get knocked out, we can make a deal.”

Phil knows my policy on dealmaking, and even in an event in which it is $2 million for first and nothing for second, I wasn’t about to compromise my position on dealmaking. I genuinely believe we need to eliminate deals from tournament poker, and more importantly, from televised events.

[/ QUOTE ]

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...php?a_id=14380

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

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As I previously stated, I don't believe there are any real consequences to prevent such deals. And if there were, I'm not quite sure they would be enforceable in court.

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yeah. i dunno about you, but people who don't understand the concept of a contract really blow me a way. what's so difficult and unenforceable about these things in people's minds? you sign a piece of paper, it says if you do x, y will happen, or if you do not do z, w will happen. or whatever. now, proof might be a bigger problem.

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If they get caught making a deal, they both walk away empty handed.

Which means they probably wouldn't be openly discussing any deal at the Bellagio for your dealer to have overheard.

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i'm also very sure that a dealer making say, $20 an hour wouldn't *possibly* LEAP at the opportunity to extort a person for say, half a million dollars? seeing as how people like to avoid such situations, they probably wouldn't discuss such a deal in the presence of *anyone* who wasn't going to be part of it.

citanul

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

You think Hellmuth would split it 50/50? He thought Duke was like a 5-1 dog to him.
-James

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

Phil says a lot of things.

Read the new article by Daniel in Cardplayer
 

He talks about how Phil says he would be happy when Daniel is out of the ESPN tourney because then everyone else can make a deal........since Daniel has a rep for NOT making them. So it would make sense that Annie and Phil did so.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

I heard from somebody that they split it four ways. Chan, Hellmuth, Duke and Lederer.

Re: Duke & Hellmuth chop Tournament of Champions prize money???
 

I find it very hard to believe that these savvy pros would not make a deal. they all know how much luck is involved in the short-run when playing against other top tournament players. If its true though, that was one hell of a tearful acting job by Annie... $500k for a days work in a freeroll ain't bad, even in Vegas.