My only problem with Poker
 

I've been playing Poker semi-professionally now for about 21 months and I've been doing decent. My poker profits almost equal my salary and I usually only play every other night. My bankroll's at a good size and I've thought about going professional, play in all the big tournaments, which I haven't done yet, and do something I love for a living.

My only problem is when I think 20, 30 years down the road and I look back on my life as a professional poker player, I don't feel any sense of accomplishment whatsoever. I've imagined winning a ton of tournaments, achieving absolute and utter sucess in poker, and when I imagine myself at that state, I feel like I've contributed nothing to society. The point is when I die, I don't want to be remembered as a great poker player -- I mean, so what.

Currently I'm just lowly merchant banker, but if I think 20-30 years down the road at success in the field, I do feel a sense of accomplishment. I wouldn't mind going to my grave as a Soros or a Peterson -- especially if I can do some considerable philantropy.

All I know is I only have one life to live, and I want it to be enjoyable, but I also want it to be meaningful, to me, my future family, and society as a whole. Of course it would be best if I could die a great writer or philosopher, but I'm not showing much promise in those fields yet, haha. But to die a great poker player, who spent his life playing a card-game, I don't know, it's just depressing to think about.

Maybe you pros out there can give me some feedback on how you feel about the profession, and if I'm not seeing some bigger picture. Thanks.


- Kase

Re: My only problem with Poker.
 

I'm no pro.

But I guess you just kinda have to ask yourself what area you stress the most?

The fact that you have the ability to make a living doing something you enjoy... that's something many people don't have.

Many people do things they don't enjoy, AND get no sense of accomplishment from them.

I mean obviously, you're the only one that can answer the question as to whether or not you keep at it. If it's a depressing thought to be a pro, then don't be a pro, plain and simple. No matter what I or anybody else thinks ;P

From a mere personal accomplishment standpoint, I think that large amounts of success in ANY field, whether it's my living or not, is pretty tasty. And that's the key, I think.

If you keep poker as a hobby, and still stay a consistent winner... well, during your "hobby time," that magical period where you're doing something you love, making money at it, but don't DEPEND on it, you're still in the same boat... 'not contributing to society,' etc.


And my final say here? I'd love to be remembered as a poker great... a phenomenal musician... a brilliant writer...

But above that, I want the people close to me, the people whose lives I've touched and been a part of, and those that have touched me...

I have little care of "how" they remember me. I just want to be remembered as somebody who lived this 'life' thing, and tried his best to do it well. If it happens that I make some big scores and become a well known poker player, or if I have a platinum album, or a pulitzer... well, good for me, but if I end up teaching high school math somewhere, I'll still derive pleasure from music, writing, and poker.


But, I guess all I can say is to look in yourself for the answer here. I'm sure there are pros that love it. I'm sure there are plenty of people who could make a living playing cards, who don't. It's really a personal decision, that no amount of logical argument on either side can make for you.

I would just advise, personally, that you be careful to try not to identify your whole life merely on how you made money. I mean after all, it's just paper isn't it?

My ramble is over. Good luck to ya on whatever decision you make.

Re: My only problem with Poker.
 

Just because you are playing pro poker, doesnt mean that you can't do anything else with your time to fulfill those other aspects of life.

The whole point of playing poker, is that you should have a lot more freetime, that you would never have if you didn't have a normal job.

You aren't forced to play 12 hours a day every day for the next 20 years. You can do charity work, some hobbies, or anything on the side.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

You don't want to be remembered as a great poker play, but you want to be remembered as a great merchant banker? No offense, but when you die I doubt society will remember you as anything unless you do something huge. If you're going to end up making something really big of yourself and become legendary for doing something great then screw poker. Otherwise, I think it's better to be known as a great card player who was respected by the poker community than to not be known at all.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

Not a pro but I agree with the sentiment. poker is not exactly a real worthy pursuit in terms of making a societal contribution. At best, it's charging people for the "entertainment" of playing you, and at worst, it's preying on people with psychological deficiencies.

You'll get endless rationalizations from some here, I'm sure, but I don't think that conclusion is escapable.

Now, don't get me wrong, there are many other things people do with their lives that are equally as empty.

But I keep my day job at least partly because at least there, I know I'm doing something which contributes to a goal other than simply taking other people's money by shuffling 52 pieces of paper around on a table.

eastbay

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

I too chuckled about his being a LOWLY merchant banker and how that could translate to meaningful.

Almost noone REALLY gets remembered down the LONG road.

Charlie needs an EGO check.

ICE AGE in 10,000 years WILL be doing a wipe and drop on us anyhow.

>TW<

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

what about if you become a successful poker professional and have enough free time to raise a family and go to your kids soccer games and coach T-ball? I think that would make your life a success....

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

Win enough money playing poker to try to buy the presidency for your friend. You said you wanted to be a Soros, right?

Soros
 

I was thinking the same thing. I want to be Soros. I want to have more money than God, but I still want the government to tax the hell out of everyone else and give their hard earned money to people around the world that didn't earn it. I want the UN to run everyone's life. Please someone regulate the hell out of our citizens' every waking moment because they're too stupid to take care of themselves...Phew! O.K. Sorry for the rant. I'll get off my soapbox now. But it's just hard for me to imagine anyone actually looking up to that bastard.

[ QUOTE ]
Win enough money playing poker to try to buy the presidency for your friend. You said you wanted to be a Soros, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Soros
 

I would say do what makes you happy now----> POKER. Take a high % of your bankroll and put it aside so you don't HAVE to depend on poker as your income. During that time try to decide what would fulfill your life. Then take that money and go for it.

I heard Barry Greenstein say the same thing. Almost exactly. He said he then decided to take almost 100% of his winnings and donate it to a charity. He said last year he donated over 3 million to that charity. He said he really feels special now. Maybe you could follow in his footsteps. Or PM me and I'll give you my PayPAl address and I'll take it from there. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Good luck in whatever you decide.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

Let's be honest, you are being unrealistic about the meaning of life...How many merchant bankers do you know who are well remembered, and does it even matter now that they are just skeletons in a box somewhere?...You have to enjoy your life and do what you want to do...there's no sin in that whatsoever. Personally, I don't care how people remember me, I just want to get paid and enjoy what's left of my existence...Then I want to go to heaven (unless Sklansky is right and there isn't one)...

Later,

Indiana

Politics and Banking
 

Well I definently didn't mean for this thread to turn into a political discussion, but since its been brought up, I think I should defend the more soft-spoken side. First of all, you have to understand that the amount of money you make in the United States is for the most part the result of being born in the United States and residing in the United States. If you want to use the term "earn" objectively and without predjudice, then I would have to say the almost 3 billion people around the world living in poverty have technically "earned" more than you as a function of the many hardships they've had in their lives. The only reason they can't personally earn as much as you or I is due to the place, family, and time in which they were born. I would venture to say 99% of those living in poverty are there through no fault of their own, and 99% of those living in relative wealth (you and I) are here through no merit of our own. It's merely a roll of the dice to see where and when you are born, and I don't think people should be punished for something out of their control. I fully support the few government efforts to help the third world, and efforts by the UN and various other groups.

Soros happens to be one of those fortunate enough to escape the holocaust and immigrate to America, I am glad that unlike many others he has not forgotten his roots and donates substanially to charitable causes. Furthermore, I don't see anything wrong with supporting a certain side in the election, we all do, and then doing what you can to help that side. He hasn't broken any laws. Not to mention, I think I would be correct in saying the Republicans have more billionare backers than do Democrats, in fact it's so uncommon, that everyone talks about Soros and thus knows about him.

Concerning banking, and my field of merchant banking, I think the general public may not be clear on what exactly it is we do. First of all, from merchant banking, moving to investment banking or venture capitalism is as easy as crossing the street. Secondly, it's entirely imaginable that I would have the resources and connections to open my own firm within the next 2 years, which would bring considerably greater income than playing poker (unless I do exceptionally well of course). Finally, from there I could easily begin to take great amounts of equity in various companies, making me a multiple business owner/executive. But I guess the biggest distinction between poker and merchant banking, in laymens terms, is power. There is no real power in poker, but a sucessful banker exerts considerable power on a number of firms and companies, and even on the political and international level.

Hope I didn't offend anyone. And thanks for everyone's much appreciated responses.

- Kase

Re: Politics and Banking
 

It didn't offend me, but what a buncha horsesh*t. It's the same bunch of morons that think the fruit of someone's labor should be stolen to take care of someone else that regulate gambling for people's own good.

You need to realize that charity and theft are not the same thing. When George Soros gives his own money willingly to help the poor, it's charity. When the government steals mine to give to them, it's theft. Or you can call it economic slavery. That term works too.

Re: Politics and Banking
 

You make a compelling point, but following that logic, what taxes aren't stealing? Medicare, Social Security, money government spends on education, money the government spends on the police force of another state, etc. All of these taxes are taken from you to benefit another person or place. So what's wrong with money to help starving children in Africa? If you follow you're logic to the bone, then we would live in a government-less anarchy. Furthermore, you may say, well I pay for the Social Security of the elderly today, and tomorrow's children will pay for mine. Well that same principle can be applied to money given to provide clean water to those in Bangladesh. You help them today, tomorrow they can start importing American goods, or someday when you don't have any clean water to drink, they'll give you some. Oh wait, but they shouldn't right? According to your logic.

- Kase

Re: Politics and Banking
 

[ QUOTE ]
You make a compelling point, but following that logic, what taxes aren't stealing? - Kase

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly!

Re: Politics and Banking
 

[ QUOTE ]
or someday when you don't have any clean water to drink, they'll give you some. Oh wait, but they shouldn't right? According to your logic. - Kase

[/ QUOTE ]

Not that they shouldn't...they shouldn't be forced to!!!

Re: Politics and Banking
 

[ QUOTE ]
money government spends on education - Kase

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think we have public schools? If it were just to ensure education was available to the poor, the govt would just provide tuition vouchers. It's to ensure that our children are turned into sheep that believe it's good and right to remain under the government's boot. It's to teach them to be quiet when a govt. representative (teacher) tells them to, etc. etc.

Re: Politics and Banking
 

And you do realize you're up the fuc*ing creek if you're depending on social security to support you in your old age, right?

Re: Politics and Banking
 

LOL
Yes I do realize I'm up the creek if I plan on depending on Social Security. But if you truly do think all taxes are stealing and thus they should not exist then what kind of country do you want to live in? If there were no taxes, there would be no roads, no postal system, no military to defend us etc. And without the ability to enforce its own laws, government would become useless. The civil rights movement would've been non-existent, crime would be rampant, education would be pathetic, etc, the infrastructure of our society would die. And you wouldn't be able to talk on 2+2 internet forums, or safely play poker in a casino, and you definently wouldn't have the education to make the witty remarks you've made in these posts.

- Kase

Re: Politics and Banking
 

[ QUOTE ]
LOL
Yes I do realize I'm up the creek if I plan on depending on Social Security. But if you truly do think all taxes are stealing and thus they should not exist then what kind of country do you want to live in? If there were no taxes, there would be no roads, no postal system, no military to defend us etc. And without the ability to enforce its own laws, government would become useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes all true. But we have a constitution that outlines the purpose of the federal government...which has expanded well beyond that scope.

But what really ticks me off is the pretentious/preachy tone of your post on "starving children" and the 3rd world living in poverty. Now I realize you didn't mean it this way, but its this kind of attitude from many abroad and in this country that get under my skin...we should all be thankful for the opportunities afforded us in this country....speaking of thankful....billions of US dollars go to aid many countries, many people worldwide. That money, just like the money won at a poker table, doesn't just appear. It has to come from some where....

But are the common everyday working man in the US thanked? No...we are usually vilified. That the US, democracy, capitalism, etc is the source of evil in the world.

Joe six pack feeds the world...and he gets [censored] on in return.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

joe six pack does not feed the world. there is enough food in this world as we speak for no one to go hungary. joe six pack enjoys his buffets and fast food which is fine but he has it much better than abdul six pack, cheng six pack and any other person who lives in an oppressive state.

the rants about teachers is absolutely idiotic. who taught you the math for poker whether in specific class or gave you the basic skills to figure it out. a teacher is so one who helped you as an individual problem solve and think for your self it is your decision to follow the sheep or not. if you don't think so wake up and smell what your smokin'

the original question asked, how to have a life that is not only personally enjoying but universally enjoyed.

charles i think that the way in which you live your life both in and outside the office, even if the office is a poker room, is based on how you treat people and the respect for others will go farther than you can imagine.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
joe six pack does not feed the world. there is enough food in this world as we speak for no one to go hungary. joe six pack enjoys his buffets and fast food which is fine but he has it much better than abdul six pack, cheng six pack and any other person who lives in an oppressive state.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for making my point.

[ QUOTE ]
But are the common everyday working man in the US thanked? No...we are usually vilified. That the US, democracy, capitalism, etc is the source of evil in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Politics and Banking
 

[ QUOTE ]
You need to realize that charity and theft are not the same thing. When George Soros gives his own money willingly to help the poor, it's charity. When the government steals mine to give to them, it's theft. Or you can call it economic slavery. That term works too.

[/ QUOTE ]

So which taxes are justified? None? Are you advocating anarchy?

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

i am not familiar with pasting a quote so i apologize.

"but are the common working man thanked? no we are usually villified. That the US democracy, economy, capitalism etc... is the source of all the worlds evils"

guilt by association is the simpliest way to put it.
as a nation we make claims of wanting to right the injustices in the world but only do so when our economic needs are at risk.

africa is a prime example. the atrocities the world lets go unchecked are inhumane.

for all the luxuries we are afforded in this country, criticism is going to happen. it does to all the top performers, athletes, and poker players everyday but they still get paid and enjoy it.

Re: Politics and Banking
 

Well I don't think you're very familiar with the constitution then Charlie T. -- cause the Tax Code isn't in it.

And your "billions" donated by this country is second to last in proportion of GDP when compared to other charitable givings of developed and semi-developed nations.

Finally, I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that the common working man in the United States is "villified" around the world. I'm sure that would be a very hard claim to back-up. Either way, I've done alot of traveling in my life and when I tell people where I'm from they were generally very hospitable. Especially in third world countries, where I couldn't believe the smiles on their faces given their living conditions. Have you ever left the United States, Charlie T? Cause if you haven't, I'm surprised you would start accusing other nationalities of "villifying" you.

And the lifestyle of your common "Joe six pack" man in the US is the envy of the poor man in the third world, and he would trade places with the man in the US any day of the week, even if it meant being "villified" to the max. He'd rather have a full stomach, nice clothes, clean running water, education, a nice house, a future for his kids, a car, medicine for his sick father, and a sewage system. I'm sure you would rather be "villified" than starving too, right Charlie T? So I don't think you should start feeling sorry for yourself cause the TV said you were being "villified" by unnamed starving children in Africa.

It could be alot worst.

- Kase

Re: Politics and Banking
 

[ QUOTE ]
So I don't think you should start feeling sorry for yourself cause the TV said you were being "villified" by unnamed starving children in Africa.

It could be alot worst.

- Kase

[/ QUOTE ]

Not feeling sorry for myself at all, far from it. I'm very proud of where I come from, and grateful for the opportunities available to me in this country....a lot of people seem to take it for granted...I DO NOT, and am a bit insulted that you insinuate it.

I've no doubt most "common" people of other countries evny our situation. But you cannot deny that the leaders of many 3rd world, european, middle eastern countries, etc "vilify" us, ignoring the contributions, whether it be financial or in blood that the US has offered to try and better life in other parts of the world.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

How'd he make your point? He's saying you want to be thanked for something you don't deserve credit for. Hitting the six pack a little early?

If you were as grateful as you say you are above for the opportunities you have and the standard of living that you enjoy relative to many others in the world, then you wouldn't whine so vociferously about the perception of joe six pack in the 3rd world. IMHO.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

I used to deal BJ at a casino (for about 8 months) and that's where I had real issues about how I wasn't contributing anything meaningful to society.
You could say that my friendly demeanor helped some of the sad-saps who played at my table.....but I can smile to some stranger on the street and accomplish the same thing.

As a result, I don't have major issues about playing poker because it's something I enjoy doing and I am able to make more money doing it and have more free-time then I did at my other occupation where I contributed little to society.


Perhaps it's just a rationalization....but I feel my greatest responsibility is to myself.
If through playing poker I have more free-time for my current GF, for my friends, to exercise, to not have to live such a rushed and stressed life then I think I am doing a great service for myself.
I can take a couple weeks off coming up to help my Mom move from Wisconsin to Florida. This is extremely meaningful to her and is certainly something I would not be able to afford to do in many other employment situations.

If I am able to make enough money that I can afford to enrich myself with increased travel to other parts of the world then I'm pretty darn happy.


Finally, there are a lot of people who run around all day long working 75-hour weeks at their corporate-whatever-it-is because finishing-the-job is so freaking important. They give themselves stress-related maladies and ulcers and the like and often-times it's all part of an illusion that they are part of something important...when the reality is that if they left their job right then and there it really wouldn't make much difference to the company, much less society and humanity.

This is not to demean those who enjoy their jobs or get fulfillment out of them. My GF is a nurse at a hospital and I am sometimes kind of jealous. Afterall, she's actually saving people's lives and is REALLY making a difference for somebody somewhere. But, of course, the previous principle applies....if she just decided to stop going to work all of a sudden the hospital would still function and everything there would be fine.



No real conclusion to come to here...just some general random thoughts.

Also - agree with the guy who says 'if you don't like how it feels to think about it then you just shouldn't do it'. plain and simple.

And I don't think we have even mentioned the practicality of trying to play big-money tournament poker and actually succeeding.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

I'm sure this has been rehashed ad infinitum in other threads, but how many people work the daily grind in jobs that are truly "meaningful" to society? How many of us would say that the primary contribution of our jobs is mainly to assist our employers in making money more efficiently in some way or the other? Personally, if I lined up the various jobs I've had in my life, it's very possible that the most meaningful one to society was the paper route I had when I was in high school.

Obviously, that doesn't mean there aren't jobs that have the kind of meaning to society that you are talking about. I'm just saying that there are plenty of them that don't. And many people are stuck in them. Then there are those in positions where they are not only not meaningful to society, but are harming society. Like anyone trying to get Bush elected, for example. Ha ha.

This is going to sound real stupid, but in my personal case, I think learning the game of poker is actually helping me become a better person, because certain lessons and skills that I am motivated to practice to improve my poker game, I find I must apply in the rest of my life as well. An example: improving my emotional control. So while there's definitely not anything "noble" (as people say) in pursuing it as a profession, I'm not entirely sure it doesn't have its place in society, so to speak.

Each person has to follow their own conscience. Maybe in your case, the alternative career you see for yourself may lead you to a position of power where you will have the kind of positive influence on society that you would like to have, something that isn't so likely to occur as a poker pro. Of course, as other people have said, we all have the opportunity to be either a positive or negative influence on society outside of our jobs as well.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

[ QUOTE ]
then you wouldn't whine so vociferously

[/ QUOTE ]

Hardly...I was simply making the point of the under appreciated contribution of the American taxpayer...nothing more...nothing less.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

Charlie,

Most of us have to accept the fact that we are insignificant. I think you are overvaluing your contributions as a banker or any other sort of rank-and-file job.

-Michael

Re: Politics and Banking
 

lol go easy on him kase, he's from alabama.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

I really know where you're coming from here as I have had many of the same feelings myself. I think that the only way you can give back and really contribute to society playing poker is if you become extremely successful, and are able to have an influence over others through poker. The values and goals you expressed are very hard to achieve through poker and there are many other professions that will put you in a better position to give back and really make as big a difference as you can. This is the conclusion, I have come to anyway.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

You make it sound like staying in banking would be good because you'd gain a great deal of "power" in the near future. How is that making the world a better place? It just makes you feel better about yourself and may well make those around you have a much lower opinion of you depending on how you wield your power. Current society may put you in a higher place because of power or money but nobody will give a rats @ss about you in 10 years unless you reach the level of a Gates, Soros, etc. and they will eventually be replaced by other rich/powerful people.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

I kinda agree with you.

I live in SF, where I see homeless people asking for handouts every day, many of them healthy enough to be working but have chosen a path in life where they contribute nothing to society.

I'm not nearly good enough to consider becoming a poker pro, but have entertained the "what if". And I thought about what I would contribute to society. Nothing, really. My current job may not be of significant value to society, but I pay taxes and help my company in their endeavors, and they in turn provide a service, employ people and pay taxes.

I don't begrudge those that choose to play poker professionally, though.

-Z

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

the bigger picture is nobody really accomplishes anything in life, they just fool themselves. unless you come up w/ the cure for cancer or something.

Re: Politics and Banking
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not to mention, I think I would be correct in saying the Republicans have more billionare backers than do Democrats, in fact it's so uncommon, that everyone talks about Soros and thus knows about him.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not true. Just for kicks, I've gone through the Forbes list of top 50 billionaires. There are more Democrats than Republicans, based on political giving.

Moreover, of the top 50 billionaires, the Democrats tend to be MUCH bigger political givers than the Republicans.

Further, the top 3 Americans appear to be Democrats. Bill Gates is debateable -- he used to be a Democrat, but he's certainly more amenable to Republicans after they fought for Microsoft. Warren Buffett and Paul Allen both have records of political giving that favor Democrats. Buffett is clearly a Dem.

If you were to control for race, you'd find significantly more Democrats in the top 50 billionaires than you'd otherwise expect if you held everything else the same.

re: Soros
The reason Soros has created a splash is because he has sought publicity in his giving and made inflammatory comments comparing Bush and Hitler. It's not because he's a billionaire supporting Democrats. That's commonplace.

In short, next time you feel like political hypothesizing, perhaps you should do some research first.

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

Hi,

I am in a similar situation as you. My toughts around it is that: I work so I can live my life, I dont live so I can go to work. (work2live not live2work)

I you are playing poker 8 hours a day and then live a nice life with that income then you can contribute to society, write a book, hang out with your freinds or whetever.

If you dont like the carreer path within the poker business get another job that have that.
If you let your hobby poker becaome your job then you need another hobby because without meaningfull stuff to do with your "free" time you dont have a life, you are just working.

My 2c
Lamby

Re: My only problem with Poker
 

Charlie,

I hear you. I have struggled with some of the same types of thoughts for years now. I am a registered nurse by days and play poker semi-professionally by nights. I thought for a long time that I just preferred to not have to depend on poker income for basic needs, but I suspect the conscience thing is also a factor.

I know that I have been guilty of some shady morals while playing poker, the most notable of which was joking and conversing with a huge fish for hours one night in a game where he came in saying he was going to play every hand and reraise if anyone else raised. He also came well enough funded to have the pros salivating (10K in a 20/40 game). In retrospect, did I really do anything wrong? Sure, I spent some time talking with someone that I ordinarily wouldn't have given the time of day to, but that could be argued to have been just good customer service. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You could always consider something along the lines of what Barry Greenstein has done with the philanthropy of his giving tournament wins to charity. From his interviews that is his primary reason for playing tourneys.

You could also consider that the reality is that not many of us will be remembered after our passing. Poker is simply a way to earn a living. If it makes you feel better, resign yourself to try to always give something back to the poker community. It could be helping the newbies, being kind to the new players, dealers, and card room staff, or whatever makes you feel good.

Always remind yourself also that fish choose to be fish. The information is out there for them to learn to play better. If they choose to ignore it, that is not the skilled players responsibility.

Regards-

Re: Politics and Banking
 

Well I can say still, I have no idea who Soros is, in fact I am wondering if that is his first or last name.

I can't be bothered worrying about billionaires, they have to be technically scumbags to screw that much profit out of what they do, there is no denying it... 8)

It's too much $ for one person, it's totally absurd, yet MJJ went broke or close to it, what MUST I think about him just for that, let alone his *cough* boy toy fetish?
Sell the Beatles catalog back to Paul! LOL!

>TW<