Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as.

Why did Kerry bring up Cheney's daughter? Do you find this at all offensive?

KERRY: And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them.

Can anyone tell me what the hell he is talking about here? Is he saying, "wives stay tied to your gay husbands"?

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

No, he's saying they are supportive of them. Not sure what's not clear about that second quotation.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

I thought it was telling that Bush emphasized how much he loved his wife, while Kerry talked about "Marrying Up".

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]

I thought it was telling that Bush emphasized how much he loved his wife, while Kerry talked about "Marrying Up".

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was telling that Bush didn't get the joke.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

probably because Bush opposes gay marriage, but thats just my guess.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

I thought it was a bit strange - Edwards did the same thing ... "your GAY daughter". They are obviously trying to make their opponents uncomfortable and it came across as a bit offensive IMO.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

i think it is much more offensive to the gay community that the president and vice president are anti gay marriage then it is that edwards pointed out that Cheaney cannot support his own daughter's lifestyle...

rj

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

agreed - but I was just commenting on how those specific comments in the debate struck me.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think it is much more offensive to the gay community that the president and vice president are anti gay marriage then it is that edwards pointed out that Cheaney cannot support his own daughter's lifestyle...

rj

[/ QUOTE ]

The issue is not the gay community - they support Kerry anyway. The issue is do people in general like a politician to go after other people's family members.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as.

Why did Kerry bring up Cheney's daughter? Do you find this at all offensive?

[/ QUOTE ]

I found it very offensive. Edwards was even worse, saying it to Cheney's face. I thought Cheney showed remarkable restraint not personally reacting to Edwards. I think that the mop tops were trying to paint a picture of disagreement if not hypocrisy in the Bush-Cheney unity. There have been hints in the press that Cheney may not be as strongly opposed to gay marriage as Bush because of Cheney's daughter, but that he toes the Party line in support of Bush.

Kerry and Edwards were both way out of line bringing up family matters. I'd expect it from Edwards. If Kerry had any class, he would have kicked Edwards butt about it to begin with, not tagged along. More evidence that Kerry will do or say anything to get elected. Apparently Mrs. Cheney had some Teresa Heinz-like things to say about Kerry bringing it up.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

It was an example of political gamesmanship at its worst. Any tactical point the Kedwards team hoped to make with this tactic is far outweighed by the negative opinion most people have to a question like this.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

Kerry is getting nailed about this on some of the post debate coverage. It was classless.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

Offensive and stupid.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

It's not offensive, don't be so sensitive. What I thought was funny was the response from her mother which went something like, "He is a bad man, john kerry is a bad man."

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Offensive and stupid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree and I would bet that Kerry probably wishes he had that one back.

There was no reason to bring her specifically into his point. HOwever I am working really hard this election on giving both candidates the benfit of the doubt and trying to avoid demonizing them. To that end I think that Kerry didn't mean to be offensive and just made a mistake.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

Lynn Cheney supposedly said that Kerry is "not a good man" and that he went way over the line bringing up Mary Cheney.

If Dick Cheney had mentioned his daughter in the VP debate, then I think it would be have justified for Edwards and Kerry to talk about her. But Cheney didn't.

The fact that both Edwards and Kerry mentioned Mary Cheney shows that the Democrats, for whatever reason, have made a calculated decision to discuss her. Maybe they are trying to embarass the Cheney family and throw him off a bit. Maybe they are trying to get some of the evangelical Christians to stay home on election night by reminding them that Cheney has a gay daughter.

It's reprehensible to drag other family members into the discussion for political gain. It would have been tantamount to Bush mentioning that Kerry had been divorced and that he had married into two extremely wealthy families. Or like Bush 41 mentioning that Michael Dukakis' wife was a recovering alcoholic who may have had some mental problems.

It's almost as bad as pandering to people with spinal cord injuries by saying that if Kerry is elected, people like Christopher Reeve will get up out of their wheelchairs and walk again. Just disgusting.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

Considering the question is what have you learned from the strong women in your life, Bush talked about how much he loved his wife and Kerry answered the question.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kerry answered the question.

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you weren't paying attention, all Kerry said about his wife was that he "married up", what did he learn from that?

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

The question was about strong women in their lives and what they were taught by them. Kerry answered that his mother taught him "Integrity, Integrity, Integrity." He also said of his wife and daughters "I can sometimes take myself too seriously. They surely don't let me do that. "

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kerry answered that his mother taught him "Integrity, Integrity, Integrity."

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently this teaching didn't take in his case.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

I wonder how the left would feel if you had brought up Julia Thorne in answer to a question about religion or family values.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

Bringing up Cheney's daughter was certainly low. He could have made the same point without naming her.

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder how the left would feel if you had brought up Julia Thorne in answer to a question about religion or family values

[/ QUOTE ]

Just like bringing up Cheney's daughter, it would have been low. Further, it is largely irrelevant. Kerry's previous marriage was annulled -- thus, no problem with his religion. Not a big family values problem either given the large percentage of the population in the exact same position.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kerry's previous marriage was annulled -- thus, no problem with his religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you look at the typical grounds for annulment in the Roman Catholic Church, you will see that Kerry's was rather irregular, most notably in that he had been married for an extended amount of time and had children from that marriage. It would be interesting to know what the grounds were. So yes you are technically right but the fact remains that the Roman Catholic church considers marriage a sacrament and getting a divorce is technically grounds for excommunication.

[ QUOTE ]
Not a big family values problem either given the large percentage of the population in the exact same position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kerry was separated from Julian Thorne for 6 years until they finally divorced. During this time Kerry was alleged to have had an affair with a British reporter. If that were true, I think it does pose a family values problem.

That being said, we agree on the essential point here. I'm just feeling feisty today. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
So yes you are technically right but the fact remains that the Roman Catholic church considers marriage a sacrament and getting a divorce is technically grounds for excommunication.


[/ QUOTE ]

But, because the marriage was annulled it is as if it never existed. Thus, the church doesn't give a rip.



If they were separated for 6 years, nobody in their right mind would think that sleeping with someone during that 6 year period (prior to their official divorce) was any worse than sleeping with someone the day after the ink is dry on the divorce papers.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder how the left would feel if you had brought up Julia Thorne in answer to a question about religion or family values.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean if I said something like this:

"I don't think people should abuse the annulment system of their church. I hear Julia Thorne is a woman who was victimized by such annulment manipulation."

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
There was no reason to bring her specifically into his point. HOwever I am working really hard this election on giving both candidates the benfit of the doubt and trying to avoid demonizing them. To that end I think that Kerry didn't mean to be offensive and just made a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

The intention of a statement like this is to weaken Bush's base. The are some on right who probably frown upon Cheney(and therefore the ticket) because of his lesbian daughter.

Stu

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Kerry's previous marriage was annulled -- thus, no problem with his religion.

[/ QUOTE ]

This statement is incorrect. Just because Kerry was able to get some people in the church to slip him this annulment does not excuse the abuse of this church policy.

He basically delegitimized his children - are they now born out of wedlock since their parents are now "never married"?

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
But, because the marriage was annulled it is as if it never existed. Thus, the church doesn't give a rip

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, you are technically correct. However the circumstances around this annulment were not ordinary as I pointed out.

[ QUOTE ]
If they were separated for 6 years, nobody in their right mind would think that sleeping with someone during that 6 year period (prior to their official divorce) was any worse than sleeping with someone the day after the ink is dry on the divorce papers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know plenty of people that would disagree with you on that, starting with me and Mrs VulturesRow.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know plenty of people that would disagree with you on that, starting with me and Mrs VulturesRow

[/ QUOTE ]

I certainly respect that position, though I tend to disagree with it. I just don't think most people believe that something magical happens when the ink dries. They were separated. They had basically said to one another that the marriage was over.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

How is the sexual choice of the daughter of the vice president something that should be brought up in a presidential debate? I'm voting for Kerry and I found it offensive. What was his reason for mentioning her?

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just don't think most people believe that something magical happens when the ink dries.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont either. Here is how I look at it. If you separate in a marriage, you are acknowledging the fact that there is a problem. You can either try to fix the problem and reconcile or get divorced. One would assume that a period of separation as long as 6 year might be predicated on an attempt at reconciliation. If so, having an intimate relationship with another person surely isnt conducive to that process. On the other hand, if reconciliation was never the intent, why wait 6 years? I think its dishonest and shows little respect for the institution of marriage. Anyways, hope you found that somewhat interesting as to why a person would feel the way I do about it.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

I understand your position. I think it assumes a lot, but I can certainly understand the sentiments.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]

It's almost as bad as pandering to people with spinal cord injuries by saying that if Kerry is elected, people like Christopher Reeve will get up out of their wheelchairs and walk again. Just disgusting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean President Kerry isn't going to heal the sick and make the lame get up and walk [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] You must be wrong, because Prince Edwards said it would happen.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

"There are some on right who probably frown upon Cheney(and therefore the ticket) because of his lesbian daughter."

Undoubtedly there are some who frown upon Cheney because of his daughter, but will they really, therefore, vote for Kerry, the most liberal member of the Senate? If it was indeed an attempt to weaken Bush's base, it was ill-thought.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If Dick Cheney had mentioned his daughter in the VP debate, then I think it would be have justified for Edwards and Kerry to talk about her. But Cheney didn't.


[/ QUOTE ]

No, actually you're wrong. Cheney did bring it up in the second debate and even talked very candidly about it.

The fact of the matter is that the woman has been out of the closet for years and years and that, even prior to this campaign season, Cheney has addressed the issue openly.

Is there so little good news coming out of the Bush camp that this is all you guys can latch onto?

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm voting for Kerry and I found it offensive. What was his reason for mentioning her?

[/ QUOTE ]

If something is said once in an extemporaneous situation, it could be a minor slip in judgement. When both Edwards and Kerry bring up Cheney's daughter's sexuality in their biggest TV national exposure, in obviously prepared comments, methinks there is a purpose and a strategy there.

At the risk of being cynical, these guys used a private family situation to show the hard-core right that the Republican administration is not unified in total opposition to gay marriage, and to hint that Cheney is a hyocrite in espousing opposition to gay marriage while having a gay daughter. Whatever people think of Cheney's politics, he always appears to be sincere and a gentleman, and to take the high road. He didn't deserve to have his private family life dragged into the national spotlight.

This was another case of Kerry saying anything that he thought would get him some votes. Well, he ain't getting mine. But then neither is Bush, so there [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

I think they are more interested in Bush''s voters not makeing it to the polls, as opposed to getting them to switch sides.
I dont think this was a good attempt though.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

I should have been more precise. While Cheney talked about his daughter, I believe it was only in response to Edwards bringing up her name first.

My point was that if Cheney had used his daughter as a political prop, then she would be fair game. But he hasn't done so.

In the interests of fairness, I would also like to commend Edwards for not bringing up the fact that his teenage son was killed in a car accident. It was an unspeakable tragedy, and I am glad that he hasn't tried to use it to get sympathy from the voters.

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Undoubtedly there are some who frown upon Cheney because of his daughter, but will they really, therefore, vote for Kerry, the most liberal member of the Senate?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not about getting them to vote for Kerry. Its about getting them to feel less enthusiastic about the ticket. The less enthusiastic they feel about the ticket, the less likely they are to vote. The democRATS are correctly thinking that each vote lost by the opposition is as good as a vote for Kerry.

[ QUOTE ]
If it was indeed an attempt to weaken Bush's base, it was ill-thought.


[/ QUOTE ]

The RATS are looking back to Florida 2000 thinking, "Golly, if we demotivated just 1000(or whatever the magic number was) Bush voters to the point where they did not go to the poles, Gore would be in office today."

Its ill concieved because Rove is going to spin this against them. Rove is a smart guy and waited till Kerry opened his mouth on the issue before unleashing the spin machine.

Stu

Re: Is it proper to drag her into it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The intention of a statement like this is to weaken Bush's base. The are some on right who probably frown upon Cheney(and therefore the ticket) because of his lesbian daughter.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is a perceptive observation, Stu, and I think you are probably right.

Also, somehow I can just picture a trial lawyer in court doing something just like this primarily for the tactical value. For whatever it's worth.