How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

How do online poker sites (such as Party Poker where I play) determine the cards delt. Before every new hand do they randomly determine the 52 card order? Does the computer then burn a card before the flop, turn, river? Maybe its just me, or maybe its normal, but I've seen an awful lot of great hands beat by incredible hands on Party Poker. Straights, flushes, full houses, seem to be the minimum you better have not to fold. Just myself the other day I had 4 aces. The next game or so later another person had 4 kings. I am fairly new to poker and don't seem to see this much "power" when we play with real cards. Plus I've seen an awful lot of bad beats determined by the river. Is this normal? And again does anyone know what determines the cards delt?

Thanks,

Craig

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

I have no idea ... but I agree with what you said. It seems like you make a lot more "big hands" playing online then you do off-line.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

Online decks actually have a 14th spade.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

True. But it is always the burn card, so you never see it.
[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

I'm not quite sure about the whole burning a card on the turn/river, but i've seen the results of the probability that certain cards are dealt out, compared to the actual results on pokerroom.com and have noticed similar numbers. So it can't be any different than a live game, so i'll take my chances playing them [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. I also believe you see more bad beats online because the amount of hands you play in an hour is significantly a lot more than in a live game.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

Bigger hands win in a full ring game than in a short handed game because more hands are dealt out.

When playing online more hands are played per hour than when played live.

Therefore one may perceive that very powerful hands occur more frequently online.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

It seems like you make a lot more "big hands" playing online then you do off-line.

THat's for one simple reason. You see more hands online.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

There's no need for a burn card online. The only reason a card is burned live is too offset the chance that a player got a glimpse of the next card during the preceding action.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

Why a 14th spade? What is the purpose? Why not just have the computer randomly generate a 52 card deck then burn the proper cards as in a "real" poker game? The mathematics of creating a program to do that don't seem that hard. I studied BASIC progamming back in high school on ancient Commodore computers. I could even make a program to do that and I am by no means a computer whiz.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

It was a joke Craig. You need to re-tune your sarcasm detector.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

Refer to this post in the Beginners Questions forum.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

Warning: somewhat heavy programming jargon.
I'm not exactly sure how they do it online, but one time, just to try it out, I made a program that used a deck. I made a deck of 52 cards that were initialized in a specific order. Then I just randomized them once, and kept a pointer to the "top" card of the deck. As the cards were dealt, the program would return the card that the pointer was poining at, and push it down to the next card. Once I was done using the deck, I would randomize the deck again, and move the pointer to the top to zeroth element of the deck array. I'd imagine that they do something along those lines. Perhaps they use a stack to hold the cards, maybe a queue. I found, though, that using one "deck", which you kept randomizing, kept the deck extra random, instead of instanciating a new deck each time. I'd imagine that they can technically use one deck for each table, and randomize that each hand. Or perhaps they would use one deck for the whole site, and keep randomizing that over and over again, and copying the results into a stack (or queue, or whatever... It doesn't really matter) for each particular table. I've acually thought about how they do it, in to a little bit of detail, at least...

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

Here are some more details about the Random Number Generator used by PartyPoker:

http://www.partypoker.com/about_us/rng.html


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Does the computer then burn a card before the flop, turn, river? etc.

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Implementation details like this are really not interesting. As long as there is a randomly shuffled deck they may just as well pick card number 4, 16 and 47 for flop cards. It doesn't matter.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

Holy crap i was hoping he was being sarcastic too...

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

The cards are also not generated all at once. Each card is randomly selected before it is given to a player. Think of it as a constant shuffle and when the pokerroom wants a card, it grabs the one that happens to be on top.

I really dislike this because there is no "fate" in online poker since clicking at a differnet instant would cause the entire hand to change.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

Well, the alternative would allow hackers to know the next card.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

Start each hand by having a spectrum of hands in which each opponent could have, which will start out very large, and then by the way the play you will continue to narrow this spectrum. The plays you make should be based off of what will do the best versus the biggest portion of the spectrum.

After a good amount of experience you will do this even just naturally withouth trying and you will develop a certain instinct which sometimes you just know what hand they have.

ps. poker tracker can help greatly in reading players as it can provide a plethora of stats on them

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The cards are also not generated all at once. Each card is randomly selected before it is given to a player. Think of it as a constant shuffle and when the pokerroom wants a card, it grabs the one that happens to be on top.

I really dislike this because there is no "fate" in online poker since clicking at a differnet instant would cause the entire hand to change.

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Not all sites do this.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

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Well, the alternative would allow hackers to know the next card.

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Only if they managed to hack in. There are much easier ways for hackers to steal thousands of dollars then to hack into an online poker site. Hacking into a poker site just to look at the cards would be a nightmare. As a hacker, you want to get in, and get out as quickly as possible. Keeping a constant connection open like this would be like leaving a map to your house at a bank you just robbed.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

it kinda bothers me they use the term random..no computer or algorithm can produce a truely random number. however they do a very good job of it.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

Yes, probably the most limiting factor is the random number seed. If the seed is generated by a human, would you consider the shuffle random?

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

Also, I'm a firm believer that an analog computer can create truly random numbers. The only problem is you can't prove that they are random. So, as far as I know we stick to digital methods.

\"Action\" Flops Online
 

Maybe this is part of the reason also:

Action Flops Online: Raising the Rake

Re: \"Action\" Flops Online
 

You're kidding about the action flops thing, I hope.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

[ QUOTE ]
it kinda bothers me they use the term random..no computer or algorithm can produce a truely random number.

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In fact, online poker sites do use truly random numbers to shuffle the cards. Refer to this post in the Beginners Questions forum.

Re: \"Action\" Flops Online
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe this is part of the reason also:

Action Flops Online: Raising the Rake

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GCA is a liar, a troll, and a moron. His credibility is near-zero.

Re: \"Action\" Flops Online
 

Hi Dan,

I read the argument, and I think it's absurd. It's nothing more than the usual "it's hard to beat bad players because they call too much" argument that gets raised (and crushed) here on a regular basis, coupled with an "I can't prove it but they can't disprove it either" conspiracy theory about online cardrooms shaving the odds to favor the fish and keep them playing.

Basically, this is written by a player who overvalues pair hands and thinks they ought to win whenever he gets them. Well ... they don't. Wah-wah ... get used to it.

Cris

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

lol sorry posted that last one in the wrong thread

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

This is how I've been told Full Tilt Poker does things:

They have a hardware random number generator (background radiation counter) and additional entropy (randomness) is created by action at the tables. Bet amounts, time taken, I'm not sure what exactly goes into it, but since it uses data from every table in play, there's no way that anyone can predict what happens.

The deck is "continually shuffling" until a card is needed. What this means is that your actions on the hand affect the randomness, but because all tables affect the randomness, you can't use your actions to try to game the system because you can't predict what others are doing. Basically, this means that noone can crack the server and figure out the next card before it comes, so it is (supposedly) more secure than any system that sets the deck. (It also means that if you had called a fraction of a second earlier, maybe the other guy wouldn't have hit runner-runner for the flush to beat your flopped set.

Re: How do online poker sites determine cards?
 

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It also means that if you had called a fraction of a second earlier, maybe the other guy wouldn't have hit runner-runner for the flush to beat your flopped set.

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Ok, that's gonna make me lose my mind. Thanks a lot!

Win a set of clay poker chips!!!!!!!
 

We have a home game in the KC area where a friend of mine brings his monkey over to deal the cards for us. For the most part its random. If he starts drinking though it gets bad. We usually end up calling it a night when he starts flinging his poo everywhere. To win the poker chips you have to guess the monkeys favorite beer. Send your answers to me with a $5.00 money order. Drawing will be held on Oct. 31. Friends and family of the monkey are not eligible. In case of a tie the chips will be split among winners. Thank you for playing.

Re: Win a set of clay poker chips!!!!!!!
 

Dude, you need help [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

One Street at a Time
wdbaker Denver, Co

Re: Win a set of clay poker chips!!!!!!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
We have a home game in the KC area where a friend of mine brings his monkey over to deal the cards for us. For the most part its random. If he starts drinking though it gets bad. We usually end up calling it a night when he starts flinging his poo everywhere. To win the poker chips you have to guess the monkeys favorite beer. Send your answers to me with a $5.00 money order. Drawing will be held on Oct. 31. Friends and family of the monkey are not eligible. In case of a tie the chips will be split among winners. Thank you for playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whenever poo comes out involuntarily, just spank your monkey to stop it!
Accident [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]