Interesting No Limit Question
 

I consider this fairly elementary but two good players got it wrong when I asked them, so let's see what you guys say. Just answer without explanation for the time being.

It is the beginning of the big tournament and everyone has about ten grand in front of them. When fourth street rolls around you have two opponents, both pretty good players and the cards on board are AKQT with two diamonds. The pot has $900 in it. The player to your right bets $200 with what you are almost sure is a straight. You have AJ of spades. You are almost sure that the guy behind you has a flush draw.

Do you:

A. Fold

B. Call

C. Raise the minimum (to $400)

D. Raise a moderate amount (say to about $700)

E. Raise a lot (say to $2000)

F. Move In

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

D (although I don´t like the answer, since I´d raise more then just 700, but less then 2k, maybe something like 1,3k)

Don´t you see why? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Best regards

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

I dont believe this situation is worth risking all of your chips in case of a call by the person on the draw.

I would probably opt for raising to around $2000 to make it really expensive for the draw to see the river and possibly make his flush.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

I've edited this post several times already, each time getting more conservative. I could actually understand folding it here... though I'd be more likely to call and see how the flush draw reacts. If he puts in a big raise, then get out. Getting freerolled would be a disaster, especially given how tiny the pot is.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

Call. fold to a river diamond

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

Thought a bit more about it, and there might be some cases (depending on the first player) where I´d strongly consider the minimum raise. Sure you see why this time [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Martin Aigner

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

C

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

I think even the moderate raise to $700 would give people on the flush draw incentive to stay in. However, this being the case, you raising to $700 would then trap the flush draw in, and the person in front of you would (in theory) raise all in, you would call, and the flush draw would invariably drop, as his mythical pot odds would no longer be present.

Raising less is meaningless -- raising more chases him out before donating another $700.


Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

You said don't explain it so I won't.

I fold in a heartbeat.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
You said don't explain it so I won't.

I fold in a heartbeat.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is some joke to be made about a squirrel folding the nuts, but I won't make it.

Barron Vangor Toth
www.BarronVangorToth.com

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

fold or raise moderate....erased explaination after thinking about my answer another minute.

JMP

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

E.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

Easy.

D. Raise a moderate amount (say to about $700)

You told us not to give an explanation for now.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

C) seems correct to me, though my head has been thoroughly battered by the question.

Regards Mack

Re: Also...
 

I think raising (any ammount) is BY FAR, the worst option.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

What if the flush draw contains the Jack of diamonds?

How much do you like raising now?

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
You said don't explain it so I won't.

I fold in a heartbeat.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

B - Call

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

I'd call. If a diamond hits, I fold, if someone moves in, I fold. Hate to be freerolled.

Greets, Erd.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

I know you said not to explain, but other people have already started to, so I guess I will as well.....

Knowing that the guy behind you has the straight, you know that the pot will be raised when it gets to him.

In a tourney, you don't want to take chances, and you sometimes have to pass up small +EV opportunities. Therefore, you strategy should be to get the flush draw to fold. However, obviously, you can get money out of him by betting, having him call, and then getting the other guy to raise him out(or you re raise him out).

So the question becomes: What is the maximum amount that the guy with the flush draw will call?

I think there is a very important concept that you are totally leaving out, however. You mention that you are "almost sure" that the opponent on your right has a straight. Well, the question that arises is one of very high level poker thinking: Do you think your other opponent also has the same read on your opponent as you do? This is vital because if the diamond draw also puts him on a straight, then he may realize that by calling your raise, he is going to then be re raised by the other guy, and therefore he should simply fold to save money.

Against a very good player, I think the minimum raise will be all you are able to get from him. Against a merely 'good' player, you may be able to get away with a moderate amount. I know that you said he was a good player, but thats a very broad discription of his style and skill level, and it is vital to know more here. Does he often chase small bets early on for the chance of making a huge score? This is an important question.

Let us take a look at it from the flush draw's perspective. He has about a little better than a 20% chance of making his flush. With $900 in the pot, a bet or $400 called by 2 people would make it putting in $400 to win $1700, which when you figure in implied odds is an easy call. Obviously now, he might realize that the other guy may re raise if he puts him on a straight as you do, but I think that since he is getting such good implied odds, he will take that risk(unless he was 100% sure that that the initial bettor had a straight). Your other option of $700 seems to be too much. That would mean calling $700 with $2300 in the pot(after the call by the opponent). If the flush comes out, your hand is going to be quite obvious if you have it, so you're not going to be able to get called by a huge bet on the river. Therefore, I don't think $2300 is enough to call a $700 bet even if you were sure that the first bettor won't reraise, which you aren't.

It is clearly the minimum raise that is the best move imo. Perhaps you can raise $300 instead of $200 if you feel like it, but thats about all you can get away with imo.

One last consideration is that it is possible for someone to have both the straight and a flush draw, in which case you are in big trouble. You totally fail to mention this aspect, but it absolutely must be considered.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

My choice is D.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

D

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

Does the order in which the cards came affect anyone's thinking? In my mind, there is a difference between the two diamonds having come on the flop and the second diamond having come off on the turn.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

[ QUOTE ]
Does the order in which the cards came affect anyone's thinking? In my mind, there is a difference between the two diamonds having come on the flop and the second diamond having come off on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that would definitely affect what you think each opponent has(you would look at how they bet and when), but since DS has told us what each opponent has, that becomes less important. However, it is a bit important in order to determine if our opponent's put the other opponent on the same hand as we do.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

D.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

If they are good players, then the answer is definately C: raise the minimum.

Anyone who said fold or call either hasn't read the post or in Sklansky's words "Deserves to lose."

Clear Fold
 

This is similar to Omaha8, where you have the A2 nut low with no high hand and feel you are tied for low, and there is a player who has high locked up.

Except you don't split half the pot if a diamond hits.

Sticking to my guns
 

Still no one has agreed with me, but I'm sticking to my guns.

I can't even imagine putting another chip into this pot.

I would be willing to bet if you asked this question to good PL Omaha players, the responses would be very different.

Re: Sticking to my guns
 

You realize you'll have the nuts on the river like 85% of the time here right?

You realize there is another player behind you ALSO with the nuts. If you re-open the betting by min raising, what do you think the other good player is going to do?

Squirrel, you are ridiciulously wrong.

Re: Clear Fold
 

You're getting close to what I believe is the proper reasoning.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

oh and btw....

wrong forum [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Sticking to my guns
 

What is he going to do?

If he has the Jack of Diamonds, he will do anything he damn well pleases.

I am ridiculously correct.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

raise a lot (to about 2000)

Re: Sticking to my guns
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is he going to do?

If he has the Jack of Diamonds, he will do anything he damn well pleases.

I am ridiculously correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yet another interesting aspect of this scenario:

Lets say that nobody has both the flush draw and the straight, which is the most likely scenario. If you bet big, you may scare the other straight out of the pot since if hes anything like Squirrel, he'll fold to a big bet.

Re: Sticking to my guns
 

[ QUOTE ]
Still no one has agreed with me, but I'm sticking to my guns.

I can't even imagine putting another chip into this pot.

I would be willing to bet if you asked this question to good PL Omaha players, the responses would be very different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Der...but this isn't omaha.

Re: Sticking to my guns
 

This noob agrees--just fold.

In a real tournament, with less time to think, I would probably have raised big or pushed to fold Mr Flushdraw out of the pot and split with Mr Straight.

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

Raise the minimum $200 to try to keep the flush draw in.
He can't call a raise of $700.

Then villian #2 can reraise and you can push the flush draw out.

Re: Sticking to my guns
 

The fact that it's not the MOST LIKELY scenerio isn't the point. The point is that it's a very viable scenario.

So you want to raise? You will either win a small pot, chop a small pot,chop a big pot(WHICH WILL NET YOU THE SAME AS CHOPPING A SMALL POT) or you will be playing for your entire stack with NO chance of winning the whole pot and about a 20 percent chance you will go broke.

That's terrible.

Another thing, let's say you raise to eliminate the flush draw and do so(about 1000 or so). The original better, who has a straight with the Jack of Diamonds and no flush draw can still move in on you. (You don't know if he is freerolling you or not, but you KNOW you can't win the whole pot)

How do you like your hand now?

You are SERIOUSLY underestimating the power of any player holding the Jack of Diamonds.

Re: Sticking to my guns
 

Or Mr. Straight made his straight with the Jack of diamonds and some other diamond.

You just made the Ad2d fold behind you.

Mr. Straight puts you all in on a complete freeroll, you call, the 8d hits the river and you complain about your "bad luck"

Re: Interesting No Limit Question
 

E kills the odds for a flush draw...