Said something stupid...
 

10/20 game at Trump Casino in suburban Chicago. I have A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] UTG and raise. Three players and one of the blinds cold call.

Flop is Axx with two diamonds. I bet and am called in two places.

Turn is a small diamond. I bet and the first caller, who is a pretty aggressive player, raises. It's folded around to me.

I say "I'll pay you off" and call.

Having said that, can I fold the river if he bets again?

Re: Said something stupid...
 

no.

Re: Said something stupid...
 

no

Re: Said something stupid...
 

from mike caro:

a guy who knows you will call is NOT bluffing.

Re: Said something stupid...
 

[ QUOTE ]
no.

[/ QUOTE ]
why not?

Re: Said something stupid...
 

read above

Re: Said something stupid...
 

from mike caro:

a guy who knows you will call is NOT bluffing.

Above, you answered his "Can I fold?" with a "no".

So you advocate calling a bet that can not be a bluff?

Re: Said something stupid...
 

oops.. good thing someone is paying attention. i meant "yes".

he should fold.

Re: Said something stupid...
 

at most 6/12 - 10/20 games I've been in a turn raise is almost a sure sign of having better than 1 pair. So I too agree you can not call. But I seriously think people are too paranoid and think others are trying to bluff them more often that actually occurs. And I come from LA, land of the biggest crazies.

Re: Said something stupid...
 

Are you asking if you are required to call, since you said you would pay him off? Either way, I believe you can and should fold.

Re: Said something stupid...
 

if you're going to fold the river when he bets then why not just fold now. What % of the time does he bet this river? Its got to be around 90%. If you call on the turn you gotta make a crying call on the river(assuming a 4th diamond doesn't come).

Re: Said something stupid...
 

You should fold but most people won't. I had a similar situation where my opp checked the River and then turned his cards over before I could act.

I think he was shooting an angle to save a bet so I had no guilt about betting as I had him beat. He squirmed for a while but just could not fold.

Re: OT Where is this card room?
 

I travel to Chicago a few times a year. Used to play at Hollywood until they started charging admission. An have also played at Harrahs. Is this place new?

Bubbagump

Re: Said something stupid...
 

You really have no way of knowing how he is interpreting your statement, so you don't know much more about what his river bet means than you would have otherwise.

I think you absolutely have to call down an aggressive opponent's turn raise (and river bet) here. You're getting like 10.5:2 to call the turn raise and river bet. Folding would be a significant mistake.

Additionally, from a meta-game perspective, you probably don't want to be known as someone who bets and releases to a raise on a scare card, particularly with an aggressive player.

Re: Said something stupid...
 

Nate,

Where I play people like to say the old " One Time Donation " line when you raise them on the turn. That way they ( or you [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]) have no "obligation" to call the river.

( not that you were in this case either )


Tim

Re: Said something stupid...
 

The problem as I saw it, was that once you said that, you guarenteed he'd bet the river almost regardless of his holding. If this is the hand I remember, then he would have anyway, so it didn't really matter.

Re: Said something stupid...
 

[ QUOTE ]

Turn is a small diamond. I bet and the first caller, who is a pretty aggressive player, raises. It's folded around to me.

I say "I'll pay you off" and call.

Having said that, can I fold the river if he bets again?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think you can fold. I'm an aggressive player, and I would certainly be tempted to represent the flush if I missed it or a complete flush even if I only have 4 to the flush on the turn.

If this were a weak player, I'd consider folding to the turn raise. There are some aggressive ABC players in this game, and against those players I'd lay it down. For a normal aggressive player, I take it to showdown.

I thought about advocating betting out on the river, but changed my mind. Would anyone bet out on the river? I think it's a bad idea unless you have a good read on this player and know he'd be able to bluff raise. You don't see bluff raises on the river in this particular game as far as I remember.

Regards,

T

Re: Said something stupid...
 

Hi Nate,

No, you can only consider folding the river if another diamond comes. If you call the turn, you might as well call the river.

What your statement may help with is that if he is semi-bluffing with a big diamond, this may stop him from betting the river should a blank hit.

Re: Said something stupid...
 

"What your statement may help with is that if he is semi-bluffing with a big diamond, this may stop him from betting the river should a blank hit."

Why would you want to discourage him from bluffing a non-[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] river if he was semi-bluffing the turn with a high [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]?

Re: OT Where is this card room?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I travel to Chicago a few times a year. Used to play at Hollywood until they started charging admission. An have also played at Harrahs. Is this place new?

Bubbagump

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Trump has been open for less than a year. This was the first time I've played at that room, however. Based on my limited experience I'd sum up the alternatives as follows:

Advantages to Harrah's:

Regular 20/40 games.
Somewhat better floor managers.
No weird swimming pool smell like at Trump.

Advantages to Trump:

Semi-regular $200 NL game.
Significantly more spacious cardroom.
Cheap alcoholic beverages.

Re: Said something stupid...
 

of course you can fold on the river! The only binding action of your verbal declaration on the turn.

Don't listen to any yahoo on here who tells you differently.

Re: Said something stupid...
 

On top of that, most of these guys aren't even paying attention to your question!

He's not asking you for strategy advice, nimrods! He's wanting to know if his verbal declaration of "I'll pay you off" is binding on the river.

And the answer is a resounding NOOOOOOOO!

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Said something stupid...
 

[ QUOTE ]
On top of that, most of these guys aren't even paying attention to your question!

He's not asking you for strategy advice, nimrods! He's wanting to know if his verbal declaration of "I'll pay you off" is binding on the river.

And the answer is a resounding NOOOOOOOO!

[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I was asking for strategy advice; I know that the declaration is not binding for the river.

Re: Said something stupid...
 

LOL

Re: Said something stupid...
 

Oh. Okay.

well, you did say, "CAN I fold on the river if he bets," not "SHOULD I fold..."

guess I'm the nimrod.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Said something stupid...
 

Free showdown with one pair.

Re: OT Where is this card room?
 

The dealers seem somewhat better at Harrah's, although the Trump ones are showing noticable improvement for the worst ones.

If you're into lower limites, Trump spreads a $3-6, Harrahs does not.

Re: OT Where is this card room?
 

[ QUOTE ]

If you're into lower limites, Trump spreads a $3-6, Harrahs does not.

[/ QUOTE ]

3/6 is a full kill game, however.

Regards,

T

Re: Said something stupid...
 

He's a nimrod that is paying attention. I read the post the same way, was the verbal declaration binding?

Nimrod II

Re: Said something stupid...
 

[ QUOTE ]
He's a nimrod that is paying attention. I read the post the same way, was the verbal declaration binding?


[/ QUOTE ]

Of course not.

Regards,

T

Re: Said something stupid...
 

Yes. IMHO your comment is for the one bet that you are calling.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Said something stupid...
 

I call this down regardless of what you said (unless the fourth :diamond: falls). There are times when I'll make this same play with the A :diamond:, two-pair or a set. You only beat the A, but I'd still call it down, I've had more aggressive players bet that with middle pair or less.