Party 15/30 AK hand
 

As a result of the lecture I received regarding my AK limp from the small blind, I am posting this hand. The fact that I raised before the flop definitely made the hand play much easier, but I'm still curious as to your thoughts about the play after the flop.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, 30annanc calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9.66 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, annanc calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

*****Nobody showing any strength, so I have to assume my six outs (&amp; backdoor nut flush draw) are probably good here. The raise before the flop gives me the odds to call here (thanks 2 + 2).

Turn: (7.33 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero calls, annanc folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

******Again, I have the odds to make this call..seems pretty easy.

River: (10.33 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero folds, UTG folds.

******Can't win 'em all.

Final Pot: 11.33 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 10.33 BB, won by MP2.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: 1 BB, returned to MP2.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP2 doesn't show.
Outcome: MP2 wins 11.33 BB. </font>

Anything different I should do here, or is this how we handle AKo??

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]


Anything different I should do here, or is this how we handle AKo??

[/ QUOTE ]



1. Raise flop
2. Take free card on turn
3. Possibly call on river depending on opponent.


IMO, there is a BIG difference raising 2 limpers in position w AKo (automatic) and raising 3+ limpers out of the small blind with this hand. I'm sure people will throw that weak/tight nonsense at you, but for several reasons I think you're better off just calling out of sb with more than 2 limpers in most games. The hand is just easier to play that way, and your hand is not that big of a favorite over other non-dominated hands.

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Anything different I should do here, or is this how we handle AKo??

[/ QUOTE ]



1. Raise flop
2. Take free card on turn
3. Possibly call on river depending on opponent.


IMO, there is a BIG difference raising 2 limpers in position w AKo (automatic) and raising 3+ limpers out of the small blind with this hand. I'm sure people will throw that weak/tight nonsense at you, but for several reasons I think you're better off just calling out of sb with more than 2 limpers in most games. The hand is just easier to play that way, and your hand is not that big of a favorite over other non-dominated hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the advice on the flop raise...I like that play much more, and make the play above look pretty passive. As for limping with AK in the small blind, don't say that around here

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

I like to raise the flop here to knock out the rest of the would-be callers and to possibly take a free one on the turn.

Orange

Stay away from Darth mmcd and the weak tight side - raise the limpers ...even from the sb.

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

raise the limpers ...even form the sb.

[/ QUOTE ]

no

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

You and pokerhorse should get together.

orange

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

AKo out of position in a multiway pot:

1. AK is not really that big a favorite against non-dominated hands like JTs 87s QJ, etc.

2. With 3+ limpers theres at least a reasonable chance that someone has a pocket pair. Theres also a chance that other A's and K's are already out. This means that you have a dominating hand, but also negates some of your outs.

(these may seem like weak-tightish concepts, but theres more to it)

3. You will have a harder time playing the hand correctly both when you hit and when you miss after the flop:

a) When you miss you either fire at the pot or check.
When you bet out, you can expect to get a bunch of
callers and almost certainly one will bet the turn
when you check. Now you are in the position of
(maybe) having to take another card off b/c of pot
odds where you may be no good if you hit (reverse
domination). When you check, the same can be said,
except, now depending on board and how many players
stay-in there will be some doubt in your mind as to
whether your AK is still the best hand.

b) When you hit your hand, checkraising now becomes
much more difficult. You probably should not even attempt
it because the risk of giving a free card is too great.
Betting out is just fine, but realize that now every
gutshot, bottom pair, middle pair, etc. will have
the odds to chase you. When you have 3 or more of
these type hands chasing you, there's a good chance
your AK will be no good by the river.

Essentially, you are giving yourself odds to chase when you miss, and your opponents odds to chase when you hit. You are also making it more difficult to protect your hand after the flop. Also, when you hit your hand, say on board of A-7-2, you will get less post-flop action from a 2nd best hand like AJ because of your raise, but get more action from hands like 87, 45s, backdoor straight and flush draws, etc.

4. When you raise in that position, people are going to put you on a big pair or AK and are going to respond accordingly in their play. By raising you are giving out a lot of information about your hand. If you decide to push your hand postflop. Most players will probably assume its a big pair, but still "chase" you and "pay-off" on the end because of the pot size. If you don't push your hand post-flop, people will assume you have AK and you will likely be pushed out of the hand when it comes 2-bets back to you. You will also get MUCH less action when you flop great as in AK7.

By raising out of position, you might win a bigger pot when you hit your hand AND IT HOLDS UP, but I don't think the extra 2 or 2.5 big bets you gain in those pots are worth the trouble that a raise creates regarding playing the hand.

Also, when you raise you are only gaining (if at all) a small fraction of the extra small bets put in in terms of ev.

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

Like I said - you should get together with Pokerhorse.

Orange

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

Now that's some of the worst advice that I have ever seen.

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Now that's some of the worst advice that I have ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know I'm right.

Joining the Dark side
 

I have not played too much PP15-30 but I have played a lot of mid limit B&amp;M games and in most of them raising with A-Ko from the blinds in large multiway pots is usually a mistake.

In these Games with some relatively tough aggressive opponents playing holdem is more more about position than anything else.

The minute that you slow down with this hand once you have raised the pot they will pounce on it with anything, but most likely be beating you, and as said before when you flop to it you won't get paid off as well.

You are giving them pot odds on just about any draw they could possibly have, and they would be correct to chase you down.

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

Ahh, a sane reply.

Thank you.

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

That's exactly the point. You won't get much action post flop if you hit your hand, whether you raised or not, so you need to get their chips in the pot before the flop.

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

You will get more action postflop by not raising. If an aggressive player has a hand like AJ A10, you will be able to get multiple bets on at least 2 streets. Even tighter players with shittier aces will give you action. If you raised at best the AJ A10 type hands will put in a couple or 3 bets on the flop and then resort to calling you down, and the dusty aces might not play at all. If you hit your hand with all these limpers, you're gonna get played with. Its just a matter of whether you have middle pair gutshot type hands (along w maybe some dominated 2nd best hands) check-calling you down, or 2nd best hands jamming it with you postflop because they think they're ahead. Also, don't forget the compulsory extra bets you will put in postflop when you raise and flop poorly.

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

1st and aggressive player would have raised PF with AT or AJ and you will still get action from worse A's either way.

At any rate, you just keep playing your way, but for god sakes, stop trying to give advice here to people that want to play better.

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

Raising multiple limpers w/AKo out of the blinds is a BAD idea and WILL COST YOU MONEY in most games. If you want to play better think about this and hopefully you will eventually realize why.


True or False:

Offsuit big cards tend to do well out of position in large multi-way pots.


You people are greatly underestimating the importance of having position and overestimating the value of AKo in multiway pots.

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

[ QUOTE ]
True or False:

Offsuit big cards tend to do well out of position in large multi-way pots.


You people are greatly underestimating the importance of having position and overestimating the value of AKo in multiway pots.



[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but not AK

Position is important when it comes to marginal hands, not monsters like AK

Lastly, just because you raise PF doesn't mean that you have to spray chips around post-flop.

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

[ QUOTE ]
You people are greatly underestimating the importance of having position and overestimating the value of AKo in multiway pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

No... you are underestimating the value of AKo. I don't know who started the myth that it doesn't play well in multiway pots.

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

I agree with mmcd, for what it's worth, unless the game is at all shorthanded or there's only one or maybe two limpers.

Jimmyv

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

I can't believe this debate is happening.

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

Of course you do.

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

AKo is by no means a monster in this situation:

A few scenerios,

5 handed pot:

AKo 20.4%
JTs 27.4%
98s 21.3%
A7s 12.6%
44 18.3%

4 handed pot:

AKo 28.4%
QJs 29.0%
55 19.3%
97s 23.3%


5 handed pot:

AKo 17.6%
77 21.7%
A5s 13.0%
KTs 23.9%
98s 23.8%

Of course these are "cold" sims, but by raising and tying on the longshot draws, you are essentially making these percentages fairly accurate.

Try limiting the field postflop after raising out of the sb when you hit. Try getting a free card when you raise out of the sb and miss.


I am certainly not advocating playing super-passive out of the blinds in these situations. If you have a pocket pair or suited connectors, by all means raise. If you have AA KK QQ (real monsters as opposed to AKo) go ahead and raise. With AKo maybe once in a while you raise to change it up a bit, but if you raise AKo in these situations habitually, you might as well just burn some money.

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

And I'm putting in 15% of the money in a 5 handed pot and 18.75% of the money in a four handed pot. What's the problem?

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

[ QUOTE ]
And I'm putting in 15% of the money in a 5 handed pot and 18.75% of the money in a four handed pot. What's the problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are sb. Assuming bb comes along for 1 more bet with any reasonable and some unreasonable hands here because of the action, you are putting in closer to 20% in a 5 handed pot and 25% in a 4 handed pot. Not to mention the problem with implied/reverse-implied odds that your hand has. AND, its just plain easier to play post-flop w/o the raise.

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

mmcd is pokerhorse's twin.

Orange

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

AK is so easily a raise its not even worth debating. As I said in the other thread AQo could be debated in certain scenarios, though not many. AJo.... NOW you would have a good case.

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]

I know I'm right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I laughed so much at that I am now clearing up the coffee off my screen. [img]/images/graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

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I can't believe this debate is happening.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest, though the 'debate' is a joke, I CAN believe it is happening.

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

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Now that's some of the worst advice that I have ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen.

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

AKo will win more than it's fair share and thus you should raise from any position in an unraised pot (and in most raised pots).

Your arguments oozes of someone not comfertable with postflop play.

[ QUOTE ]
1. AK is not really that big a favorite against non-dominated hands like JTs 87s QJ, etc.


[/ QUOTE ]
pokenum -h ah kd - js ts - 6s 6d - qc jh
Holdem Hi: 1086008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Kd Ah 340743 31.38 743283 68.44 1982 0.18 0.314
Js Ts 233005 21.46 838653 77.22 14350 1.32 0.221
6s 6d 284126 26.16 799900 73.66 1982 0.18 0.262
Qc Jh 213784 19.69 857874 78.99 14350 1.32 0.203

Looks pretty sweet to me!
[ QUOTE ]
2. With 3+ limpers theres at least a reasonable chance that someone has a pocket pair. Theres also a chance that other A's and K's are already out. This means that you have a dominating hand, but also negates some of your outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

With 3+ limpers you need to hit the board to win, so who cares if there is a pocket pair out there. Yes there could be another A or K out there (more unlikely against limpers than raisers though) in which case you are drawing to less outs, but you will earn more when you hit because the dominated hands will pay you off. In general limpers play all sorts of crap, so you have to magnify their mistake by raising preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
3. You will have a harder time playing the hand correctly both when you hit and when you miss after the flop:


[/ QUOTE ]

I could get deeply into postflop play discussions here, but let me just comment on a few things:

x) If you are worried about giving away information, you are probably raising to few hands from the blinds.

y) Not raising for worry that the larger pot will force you to make uncomfertable drawing decisions says more about your judgement of your own postflop abilities than about the prudence of raising preflop.

z) You don't want to checkraise this hand if you hit the flop. You want to bet so that the dominated hands and draws will pay you off.

Your arguments lead me to believe that you worry more about losing the pot than winning money long term. A lot of hands will contribute dead money preflop but not postflop, so make them pay up front.

Let me end by adding that AKo is a great hand in a multiway pot. People saying otherwise are perpetuating a myth based on the fact that the relative value go down.

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

What scenarios are you referring to with respect to raising with A-Qo in a multiway pot. I don't understand how this would ever be a raising hand from the sb in the scenario that we are talking about.

The best game for raising with these big offsuit cards multiway from the blinds would be in extremely weak passive games. Where you are playing against players who are extremely predictable and easy to read.

A differnt scenario:
I have had people reraise me from the blinds with A-K when I have raised UTG and I have drilled them are you one of these people too? I laugh as they call me down with "nut no pair".

On a lighter note:

AK is Anna Kournikova-- looks Really nice but seldom wins.
And AK unsuited is like Anna with no clothes on--- a lot easier to BEAT. ---pun intended

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

I take a break for a couple months and come back to this debate again? [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] Easy raise in almost every scenario. See the thread between Astroglide and John Feeney for reasons not to raise AK before the flop(you didn't provide any of the rational ones) - but in almost every circumstance it should be a raise. Unless you are a very advanced player, I suggest always getting the money in with the goods - because erring on the side of not raising enough would be awful.
-James

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

That what he have been telling him and he keeps asking for butter with his bagel.....

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

Ok - Party 15/30. 6 fishy loose limpers and I hold AQo. I am raising in a flash.

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

And what's the matter with butter on a bagel.....? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Joining the Dark side
 

Why are you giving everyone else pocket pairs and suited cards? You think this represents a typical Party 15/30 game? Think again.

On top of that, your sim assumes that the hand will go to showdown. It won't necessarily. The beautiful thing about raising preflop is that you can get people to make laydowns postflop.

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

You have an easy flop raise because everyone else will be facing 2 bets cold, and this is precisely what you need to do to get them to fold their Q, J, etc.

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

Hi mmcd,

Your poker logic is pretty good, you've obviously thought about the game. AK out of position is just a tough hand to play. Probably raising is worth more than calling though against all but the toughest opponents, since you so frequently have the best hand and are dominating the others.

Against really tough opponents, or opponents that play really well postflop, just calling for deception might be worth it. I experimented with always calling preflop with hands like this in low limit games and had a lot of success, I don't think it's as -EV as many would lead you to believe.

Good luck,
Eric

Re: Party 15/30 AK hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
AK is so easily a raise its not even worth debating. As I said in the other thread AQo could be debated in certain scenarios, though not many. AJo.... NOW you would have a good case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think AQo plays that much differently against AKo against a bunch of limpers?

Speaking in generalities....
 

Tosh,

I think that I can see your point in the context of the PP15-30 game. I also realize that the context of the thread was PP15-30. oops my bad.


I guess my input was mainly from experiance with 15-30 and 20-40 B&amp;M games that I have played in. In most of these games there are usually 1 or 2 very weak players, a few really solid players and most player that are loose with starting hands but play extremely good postflop.

Given this new scenario would all previous proponents of a preflop raise still raise?

Also does anyone know the title to the thread between astroglide and John Feeney?

Sorry if I am a waste of space right now. I am new to internet poker and just trying to perfect my game and figure out how to beat the games on the net to the best of my ability.

Thanks