Two Plus Two Older Archives - 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

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- - 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=108609)

Nightwish

08-01-2004 05:03 PM

15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

Some stats on the two opponents:

TAG
Puts money in the pot preflop 20% of the time, raises preflop 9% of his hands, goes to showdown 39% of the time and shows the winner 52% of the time.

VeryLAG
Puts money in the pot preflop 68% of the time, raises preflop 16% of his hands, goes to showdown 40% of the time and shows the winner 36% of the time.

How do you guys like it so far? (Part 2 to follow...)

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Nightwish is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Nightwish raises, 2 folds, MP2 (TAG) 3-bets, MP3 (VeryLAG) calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, Nightwish calls.

Flop: (13.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Nightwish checks, TAG bets, VeryLAG calls, Button folds, Nightwish calls.

Turn: (8.33 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Nightwish checks, TAG checks, VeryLAG bets, Nightwish raises

Steve Giufre

08-01-2004 05:44 PM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

[ QUOTE ]
Some stats on the two opponents:

TAG
Puts money in the pot preflop 20% of the time, raises preflop 9% of his hands, goes to showdown 39% of the time and shows the winner 52% of the time.

VeryLAG
Puts money in the pot preflop 68% of the time, raises preflop 16% of his hands, goes to showdown 40% of the time and shows the winner 36% of the time.

How do you guys like it so far? (Part 2 to follow...)

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Nightwish is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Nightwish raises, 2 folds, MP2 (TAG) 3-bets, MP3 (VeryLAG) calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, Nightwish calls.

Flop: (13.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Nightwish checks, TAG bets, VeryLAG calls, Button folds, Nightwish calls.

Turn: (8.33 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Nightwish checks, TAG checks, VeryLAG bets, Nightwish raises

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont hate it. I assume LAG probably would have raised if the flop if it him. TAG probably isnt fooling around given his turn check, I woundnt be too worried about him. I guess it's more less a guessing game whether or not LAG has a K. Given the information you have on him, I think he'll be taking a stab at it enough of the time for your play to be OK. I would check call the river assuming a blank fell.

Cerril

08-01-2004 05:52 PM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

I'd be somewhat concerned I'm beat if I don't improve, and slightly more concerned that I'm dominated if I do given TAG's reraise from my UTG raise. Does he not respect me/my image, or am I drawing nearly dead? It's not, at this point, that I'm even concerned about a K (though AK from TAG or Kx from LAG are certainly in the back of my mind), but that there are a lot of hands that beat me, and if VLAG sticks around he's as likely to show me one of them as TAG.

I think I agree that that raise is gutsy but that everything will be very clear from the next play. I think I'm a little overly passive and would rather fold than pay for information, but at the very least you should know what his read of you is after this round, and if you didn't going in it might be worth the price.

Noo Yawk

08-02-2004 08:13 AM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

Hi Nightwish,

Stuck in the middle of a LAG and a TAG with AJ offsuit after I've been 3 bet preflop by TAG and then missed the flop completelty is not the spot I dream of being in.
I'm out on the flop and looking very forward to the next hand.

Given how you played however, I think your raise to get rid of TAG was a good one on the turn. Now you can get heads up against a possible draw.

Nightwish

08-02-2004 05:19 PM

PART 2

When the TAG checked the turn, I put him on one of three groups of hands. He might have a pocket pair like JJ/TT and be worried about the K. He might have something like AQ/AJ. Or he might have AK/KK/AA and be going for a tricky check-raise because he's pretty confident that the LAG behind him will bet. I think a pocket pair is the least likely of these because I think he's smart enough to know that he needs to protect that kind of vulnerable hand. A tricky AA/KK/AK is a possibility, but it's also somewhat remote. So I figured that his most likely hand was some sort of AQ/AJ. When the LAG bet, this presented a great opportunity to get the TAG to fold a better hand and hopefully go up against the LAG's draw. This is why I raised.

Now imagine my surprise when the TAG called 2 cold! The LAG also called. And the river brings no help. Now what do I do? Do I continue this bluff or do I resign myself to the fact that one of these guys will call me no matter what?

Here's the whole hand so far.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Nightwish is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Nightwish raises, 2 folds, MP2 (TAG) 3-bets, MP3 (VeryLAG) calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, Nightwish calls.

Flop: (13.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Nightwish checks, TAG bets, VeryLAG calls, Button folds, Nightwish calls.

Turn: (8.33 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Nightwish checks, TAG checks, VeryLAG bets, Nightwish raises, TAG calls, VeryLAG calls.

River: (14.33 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)

Garland

08-02-2004 06:10 PM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

Hi Nightwish,

Preflop:

Nowadays, I find AJo very troublesome UTG and dump it a vast majority of the time, even in passive games. I just don't find it very profitable in this position.

Once I'm 3-bet by Mr. TAG, I might just fold right there if it weren't for the presence of VeryLAG. Heck, even with VeryLAG, I don't like my hand that much, but there's too much money in the pot. I don't like my hand here out of position, and I'm not sure I'm rooting for an A to appear on the flop.

Flop: Loose call.

Turn play: TAG may drop, but do you honestly believe VeryLAG
will fold? Unless you think he's capable of laying down right there and then.

Flop or drop.

Garland

Garland

08-02-2004 06:15 PM

Re: PART 2

[ QUOTE ]
Now what do I do? Do I continue this bluff or do I resign myself to the fact that one of these guys will call me no matter what?

[/ QUOTE ]

You came this far despite better judgment in my view. I think you have to fire that last shell. The pot is huge now and you only need to get them both to fold a very small % of the time for this to be the correct play. Obviously fold to a raise.

Garland

Franchise (TTT)

08-02-2004 09:47 PM

Re: PART 2

Calling 2 cold on the turn makes it look like the TAG was trying to checkraise the LAG before you decided to do it for him and donate 2 extra BB's.

Check and fold the river.

Nightwish

08-03-2004 05:38 PM

RESULTS

I checked, and it got checked around. As expected, the LAG had 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for a very nice draw on the turn (if we disregard the fact that he called 3 cold with it preflop), and the TAG had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and took it down. You can't see people's faces online, but I'm sure he had a look of total surprise on his.

In retrospect, other than some weirdly played AK, this is the only hand that he could have that would make sense here. This fact, combined with the pot size, makes my river check really wrong.

Thanks for all the responses!

1800GAMBLER

08-03-2004 11:23 PM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

On the flop you have about 2.8 outs, calling is fine.

The turn is well played.

A river bet would be foolish, regardless of the action, 1. if TAG calls he's got a better hand than you and after calling two cold there's nothing you can do to make him fold it. 2. If he folds you'd do better checking against the LAG.

ike	08-04-2004 05:03 AM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

This raising and folding to a 3bet preflop advice needs to stop. It was insane enough with KQ but with AJ too now? If its not worth 6.5 : 1 for you to see a flop with AJ, even heads up out of positon against a likely huge hand, your problem is your postflop play not your preflop call.

ike	08-04-2004 05:07 AM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

Your river reasoning is flawed because of the two hands AsJs and AsQs; I'm not sure how severely this impacts the decision, but its definetly relevant. I personally would have just given up on the flop most of the time.

Cerril

08-04-2004 05:48 AM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

I'm glad to see so many well thought out replies. I guess given all that that I am playing quite a bit too weak, but I don't think I would have regretted my decision to get out of there all that much, but I'm curious given the actions of TAG preflop whether that would have been a huge bad decision or just a slight loss over time to put him on a subset of hands that has me pretty well dominated? I guess maybe slight, since there's a bit of disagreement what the proper course of action is).

Is there any question (if you don't mind a reply that probably doesn't belong in this forum) of whether there's a later point that you can be sure enough to just give in and fold rather than calling it through? Thanks.

Tyler Durden

08-04-2004 08:37 AM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

I don't think you're losing much if anything by folding AJ UTG in that game.

nykenny

08-04-2004 09:21 AM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

i like the fun factor but feel this is a high-variance play. not sure about the EV, but coming from you, i'd suppose it's +EV.

Kenny

1800GAMBLER

08-04-2004 09:36 AM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

Oh yea.

I guess you need of a detailed read for this play, if you knew TAG would have folded AQo AJo to your play then making that final river bet is hugely important, if you think there's a chance he called with them then it's tricky because he'll call with Ajs AQs missed.

Garland

08-04-2004 12:18 PM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

[ QUOTE ]
This raising and folding to a 3bet preflop advice needs to stop. It was insane enough with KQ but with AJ too now? If its not worth 6.5 : 1 for you to see a flop with AJ, even heads up out of positon against a likely huge hand, your problem is your postflop play not your preflop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

These are just propositions of course, and I've never actually done it myself. But against a known solid 3-betting player who invariably has AK, KK, QQ, JJ and maybe AQs, I'm just proposing that folding heads up with AJo out of position even with 6.5:1 may not actually be a horrible play even with optimal postflop play. Now, if someone can prove me wrong, go ahead. I do believe there are instances where folding to a 3-bet preflop can be correct (open-raising with a small pocket, being 3-bet by a tight solid player with position, folded back to you with the intent on flopping a set or dropping it, ala Tommy Angelo). They are rare, but worthy of at least consideration.

Garland

skp	08-04-2004 06:15 PM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

I am now convinced that checkcalling the river on a blank is not the best move. LAG may well have called the turn raise with one pair and hoping to improve. While he will usually call the river with any crappy pair, he will fold often enough to make bluffing with AJ worthwhile (bluffing is even more correct where the river card is another high card like a Queen or a ten as the Lag with (say) a 6 will now be looking at 2 or 3 overcards out there).

skp	08-04-2004 06:18 PM

Re: 15/30 AJo against a LAG and a TAG

I just went to the results. I didn't know that TAG called the turn checkraise. In that spot, I don't fault Nightwish for checking the river. He should bet his Aj on teh river if up against just the LAG.

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