Premium hand on the button.
 

AQ on the button a few, say 3 or 4 limpers in front.

Game is NLHE 10 handed - without going into who is weak, tricky or aggressive what is your play here. Blinds are 5-10.

Raise how much,
Limp
Fold

Just wondering what the young guns do here.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

AQ is not a premium hand, especially after 3-4 limpers.

You'd probably get better feedback by posting this question in the Poker Theory forum.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

LOL - so you fold it or call take a flop and have no idea where you are.

Geesch!

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

I usually limp here unless raises have been taking down pots. If I think I'm goign to get called by 1 weak player, then I'll raise.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

In the the last installment of Cardplayer, Rolf Slotbloom has an excellent article on why it is good to limp with hands like AQ and AJ on the button rather than raise. His rationale (without going into it too much, since you can go read the article yourself by clicking here; http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...es/?a_id=14121 ) is that by raising, you make it difficult for yourself to defend a hand which isn't going to be favorable for you most of the time. Read the article, it'll help.

I also agree that you might consider devaluing AQ from your list of premium hands. It'll get you into a lot of trouble if you consider it as such.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

Thanks for pointing out this article. A decent part of his rationale seems to require the game be a limit game (keep the pot small to keep the pot odds incorrect for straight and flush draws after the flop). Isn't this less of a concern for no-limit? A pot sized bet makes a draw incorrect no matter what the size of the original pot.

Someone else posted about limping AQ in the NL thread. Ray Zee and some others came down on the size of raising it. Personally I'd raise it on the button assuming you either take all the limpers money right there or thin the field down to 1 dominated player. If I had this in the small or big blind, I'd check/complete and try a checkraise if I paired the flop.

It's not a premium hand, but it's no slouch either.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

yep, it is completely different in nolimit.
in limit everybody is going to call due to the huge pot.

I am raising here. I want to just take the money out there and be done with the hand. Or else have it be 2 or 3 handed, plus I have position.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

Amen.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't this less of a concern for no-limit? A pot sized bet makes a draw incorrect no matter what the size of the original pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not true .

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

If the relevant stacks are small (less than 80), then raise unless someone is prone to limping and not reraising AA/KK/QQ/AK.

If the relevant stacks are much bigger, then only raise if you think you can get headsup with a poor, readable player. I guess this really isn't dependent on the strength of AQ, so my answer is limp.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

Er... what's your point? That a simultaneous overcard, flush and straight draw with 2 additional callers makes calling a pot sized bet correct?

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Er... what's your point? That a simultaneous overcard, flush and straight draw with 2 additional callers makes calling a pot sized bet correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

Er... that is part of my point, yes. Even without the additional callers you can re-raise all-in with that particular draw.

Besides, as you know, you don't need pot-odds in the limit sense to play lesser draws in PL/NL.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

That isn't what I said, Mike. I simply corrected the subject of this thread.

AA/KK/QQ/AK are typically known as "premium hands". AQ is a good hand...but can very well be a second-best hand when 3-4 players have entered the pot. Especially in a no-limit game.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

Hey Mike,

[ QUOTE ]
on the button a few, say 3 or 4 limpers in front.

Game is NLHE 10 handed - without going into who is weak, tricky or aggressive what is your play here. Blinds are 5-10.

Raise how much,
Limp
Fold

Just wondering what the young guns do here.

[/ QUOTE ]

With a premium hand on the button, I'd probably make it around 60 to go. With AQo, I'd call... [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

There's no way to answer the question well without taking the specific limpers and stack sizes into account. Sometimes you're going to want to raise your AQ (probably a decent sized raise to knock most of the limpers out) and other times limp with it. I'd be inclined to raise if I played better than most of the limpers postflop, the stacks were either shortish or really deep, or if I thought I could get it heads-up against a poor player and/or a dominated hand. If one or two of those conditions weren't met, or if one of the limpers was likely to hold a big hand, I'd likely limp along. I can't imagine folding.

Anybody who tries to give you an iron-clad answer to your question is probably wrong...

Hope this helps.

ML4L

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

OK, so you're just pointing out a bunch of obvious exceptions to an otherwise simple rule. Thanks for posting.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

Me: 67s in MP3 after 3 limpers; Raise to 5xBB (too much, normally, but the norm for the table I was playing). CO and Button folds, Blinds fold, limpers humor me and call.

Flop: A Q 8 rainbow, me "Doh!"
Checked around to yours truly, fire a pot-sized bet, everyone folds.

The point I'm trying to make is that in NL, AQ is a powerful hand on the button against several limpers. I'll raise every time and narrow it down to 1 or 2 players, whom I'll hopefully be able to manage. The majority of the time, you'll be able to take it down on the flop. If they limped with AA/KK hoping to re-raise, now is their chance and they will most likely do that, at which point you'll have some tough decisions to make.

The mistake people make with AQo is to either raise with it from an early position, or enter into raised and re-raised pots from a later one. But if you're on the button and decide to limp in after several people already have, you might need to re-evaluate your style of play.

Kirk R.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

I'd just like to add real quick that it's also dependent on the players involved, your table, stack sizes, etc. But it's always going to be dependent on those factors, so lets just assume that the conditions are met...

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

I suppose it depends on the situation and your image at the table, but I was thinking about this article more in terms of relative hands and maximizing value than an exercise in pot odds. I understand what you mean about keeping the pot small, but I think it's even more important in NL to have players holding a top pair with a weaker kicker than yours thinking that their hand is best in this situation, so that you can get more action from these hands.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

Kirk-
I never said that you can't raise AQo from the button -- in fact, I think raising this hand is a +EV move in certain situations.

Feel free to re-read my original post when you get a chance. My response was actually a lot more elementary than you're giving it credit it for. Maybe you'll see what I was getting at.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

touché

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

I have to agree maybe AQ isn't one of the top tier hands and Sklanski puts it behind some hands I disagree with heck he puts JJ in the top tier so this list is not perfect I do consider this a raising hand on the button in a NLHE game with limpers in front. I wouldn't play it except under certain conditions to a raise reraise or a raise from a solid player.

But I guess I was mostly responding to a comment by very weak tight NL player who said he'd NEVER raise with this holding with limpers behind and it is only a low limit move.

Also, I play both limit and NL "live" cash and NL and limit tournaments on line and NL Live tournaments - I must admit I'd view this hand differently in all those different game situations.

Of course stack sizes, player "read", table texture and other conditions dictate moves but I think it is silly to say it is wrong to ever raise with AQ in a NLHE game with limpers in behind on the button is just immature and a weak outlook on the game.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

I'd raise if I could take it down now or on the flop. I'd also be more inclined to raise if the players are showing weakness by limping in late position. Otherwise I would limp.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

I have to say, I don't really understand the rationale for limping. If you do limp, how should you plan to play the flop? If the flop comes A84, limping might've allowed A8s or A4s to hit two pair; if the flop comes Q67, 67s may easily be out there (or 89s now having a good draw). Unless the flop is something like AQ3 or a miracle KJT, how would you have any confidence in your hand if you catch a part of the flop? Would anyone NOT raise AK in the same situation, on the button with limpers?

I personally think AQ is quite a strong hand, combined with the button it's a veritable monster that merits being played pretty much like AK. Raise it up, thin the field, test those limpers out. If one of 'em pops you back, better to snag the AA/KK tripwire now instead of getting trapped later. Raise it up!

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

If you assume that your opponents always raise PF with AK then your AQ on the button (given no raisers) has almost become AK (save two random hands behind you) If you were BB with AQ and no raisers with a ton of limpers I would definitely raise it up. Button it depends. Normally I raise.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the flop comes A84, limping might've allowed A8s or A4s to hit two pair; if the flop comes Q67, 67s may easily be out there (or 89s now having a good draw).

[/ QUOTE ]

Your rationale for raising is not completely correct here, as these hands will call the raise pf everyday of the week online.

They will then go on to take a much bigger % of your stack, since you made the pot that much bigger.

In the end, I am just stating that above low limit games, you will not win a big pot with AQ with TP2K, but you certainly can and will lose one.

There are certainly times to raise AQ, but its not as good of a hand as many are believing.

fsuplayer

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I guess I was mostly responding to a comment by a very weak tight NL player who said he'd NEVER raise with this holding with limpers behind and it is only a low limit move.



[/ QUOTE ]

I have certainly never been saddled with that one before.
Who do you think I am, ML4L?? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

fsuplayer


Go back and reread my post from the other AQ hand MikeGuz, you painfully misunderstood my point.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

vs a bunch of loose limpers seems to me to be just about the worst time to raise with AQ.

the reason NOT to raise AQ on the button with a bunch of limpers is if 4 limpers call you are going to have a big pot, and betting enough to protect your hand is also going to come close to pot sticking you unless you are very deep.

in a 5/10 game, say 4 players limp and you make it 70 straight with 3k behind. blinds fold and everyone calls. the pot is 365 and you have 3 streets to go. betting the pot on the flop and getting one caller is going to make it an 1100 pot.

if you have less money behind, like 1k, it's even easier to stick yourself by building a big pot preflop.

raising before the flop is a pot building move, and before you raise I think you should ask yourself if I have a big pot hand or a small pot hand.

--turnipmonster

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

Good points, thanks.
So you would not raise AK in this situation either then?
My post stated that you would have to be sure no one would limp with AK, meaning your AQ is as good as AK.

I thought the justification for raising AK was to thin the field so you CAN take down a small pot, as opposed to getting burned with Axx against two crap pair. In this narrow example would AQ not accomplish the same thing?

All help appreciated.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

Backup has arrived!

This was my point, but turnipmonster stated it much more eloquently.

Lower limits with short stacks (ie Party $50), raising with AQ is fine and dandy on the button, as TPTK is a very good hand with a short stack, but the deeper the stacks, the worse hands like AKo AQo really are. Suited they become that much better however.

also against decent players, you arent going to fool them with your AQ and get their stack, but they can trap you quite nicely since they have a good idea of your holding.

good post.

BTW Most replies from this post are straight from the small stakes forum. When the money gets deeper and higher, the game changes dramatically. Which is why you get such different answers from turnip, ML4L and myself.

fsuplayer

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

it really depends on how loose the limpers are. some people will just call any raise before the flop, and vs. them I probably would not raise because of pot control. if I really thought it would thin the field I might raise. in general I think flop raises tend to thin the field a hell of a lot more than preflop pot raises.

most of the time I am not going to get burned by people playing Ace rag, because I am going to play AK well and that entails not committing my stack with one pair against Ace rag players and the fact that they are not going to suck out on me all that often. in short, I am going to trap them more times than they will trap me. also I am going to suck out on two pair sometimes when it gets counterfeit and my kicker plays.

in 5/10 and up (at least in B&M), I think you can rarely be sure no one is limping with AK. depending on the conditions I think most good players will sometimes limp, sometimes raise with it.

--turnipmonster

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

[ QUOTE ]
When the money gets deeper and higher, the game changes dramatically.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. my feeling is that a lot of deeper stacked/higher stakes NL is learning to beat good, thinking players who may have specific weaknesses. sure there are fish, but it's not like the party games where you just bet the hell out of your hand and hope they call.

I thought jkinetic's KK post a week or two ago was a great example of this kind of thought process. he knew his opponent was no fish, and he still was able to use all available info to save himself some money on what could have been a real chip burner of a hand.

--turnipmonster

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

Hey Mike,

[ QUOTE ]
I have to agree maybe AQ isn't one of the top tier hands and Sklanski puts it behind some hands I disagree with heck he puts JJ in the top tier so this list is not perfect

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky's ratings have absolutely nothing to do with NLHE. I promise that your game will improve if they don't even cross your mind when evaluating a hand's value in NLHE, because they are more misleading than helpful. David even prefaces the ranking by saying so...

[ QUOTE ]
But I guess I was mostly responding to a comment by very weak tight NL player who said he'd NEVER raise with this holding with limpers behind and it is only a low limit move.

[/ QUOTE ]

As I said, any blanket statement about whether or not to raise with AQ here is almost certainly wrong. Your friend raises a point but for him to say "never" is flat-out wrong. But...

[ QUOTE ]
I do consider this a raising hand on the button in a NLHE game with limpers in front.

[/ QUOTE ]

...if this means that you would always raise, then you are as misled as he is...

ML4L

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

I just did, and I see what you're saying. Yes, calling AQo a "premium hand" is a misnomer. Lets just say that in my post it was the Glenlivet whiskey talking, okay?

Kirk R.

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

I personally would smooth call and hope to hit the flop hard. If not I get away very cheap. With 5 limpers at this limit there is a very real possiblity that an EP player has a real hand looking to reraise maybe AA,KK or may have limped with a dominating hand such as AK or small favorites such as PPs.

In a ring game I want to hit this hand hard - FH, str8, top two and punish weaker Q's slowplayed AK with two pair, etc before I commit a lot of chips.

I don't feel good here making a 5x raise and getting called in three spots with AQo.

Good luck

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

AQo is a skill hand. how much control do you have and how many will call? if good control and few callers, you should raise.

i usually raise on the button after 3-4 limpers with AQo. i do not play in small online games where everyone calls big raises. i do play in loose 5-10 and 10-25 games where typically a couple players call a big raise, and some will limp-call with AA and AK. stacks are usually easily over 10x the pot after a pot raise and call, so there are no no-brainer all-ins with top pair.

here i have position and likely the best hand and am usually going to face 1-2 callers. also i can usually get away from top pair cheaply when beaten. that's the kind of situation i want to play for more money. plus it's a lot easier to play AQo against 1-2 players than against 5.

matt

Re: Premium hand on the button.
 

wasn't talking about you.

It was a different thread.