10/20 NL hand
 

10/20

I have BB with
J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

A consistent winning player limps 1st in from MP. Button raises minimum to $40. I call in the BB, MP calls as well.
Pot size: $120

Flop:
T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, MP bets $120. Button folds, I raise to $360. MP calls.
Pot size: $840

Turn:
5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I check, and MP bets out $400. After some deliberation, I raise him all-in for ~$1200 more.

Thoughts?

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

Don't call pre-flop.

After that, though, it was fine. He probably has slick, with the As, maybe 99 or 1010.

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

Bet out on the flop. Either a cheap pokey looking bet or a nice fat overbet.

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Either a cheap pokey looking bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't a pokey bet be giving a flush draw proper odds to draw?

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

Hi jcaesar,
You played this one very well, as long as you felt it was likely that your opponent would bet the turn if you checked. You want him to bet, and if you're beaten, you must live with it. His bet size is excellent, by the way, as it looks like a bet that doesn't mind being called. Calling pre-flop is automatic.

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

Hi Lucky,
[ QUOTE ]
Don't call pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
Be serious. This is an excellent spot to play QJs. You get to have a pot-building raise, and since someone else made it, you give away nothing about your hand. I would never, ever fold this pre-flop for $20 when one player in the pot has about $2000 in front of him.
[ QUOTE ]
He probably has slick, with the As, maybe 99 or 1010.

[/ QUOTE ]
He probably DOESN'T have slick, as this would be a re-raising hand to many strong players. But a medium pair is a good guess. The obvious danger is that Axs is also a likely candidate to be played this way.

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

pre-flop - easy call.

flop - really dislike going for the check-raise here. i would lead out here almost all the time as there is a player between you and the PFR. It is also a possiblity the flop doesnt get bet.

turn - i really like your check-raise here. you have no spade and most opponents can't pass up this bet when checked to, trying to protect their hand or represent a bigger hand.

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
flop - really dislike going for the check-raise here. i would lead out here almost all the time as there is a player between you and the PFR. It is also a possiblity the flop doesnt get bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nero, between the type of players that were in, I knew almost 100% that the flop would be bet. Mainly, my play here was to trap the button, who I knew would bet automatically if we both checked to him as the PFR. I had this read on him because he obviously had an inflated ego from catching a nice run of cards and a tilted player that pushed his buy-in from $2000 to a ridiculous stack of $16,000). Previously, he had been betting hands like 37o and J3o from position at any sign of weakness from those to act before him.

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
turn - i really like your check-raise here. you have no spade and most opponents can't pass up this bet when checked to, trying to protect their hand or represent a bigger hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for the double post, but why do you like the checkraise with my lack of spade outs? Seems to me it would've been better if I had a chance to improve to a better hand on the river.

Re: Results
 

MP called my all-in raise rather quickly with 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Given this knowledge, does this change anything about what you guys think?

I feel as though I should've bet the scare card and folded to a raise. If he had called my bet on the turn, it would've been a tough call on the river. Considering, however, that the river was a 4th [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], it appears that I would've been able to save myself some money in that situation.

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't a pokey bet be giving a flush draw proper odds to draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

You should be more concerned about how a big pot hand pans out than giving incorrect odds to a flush draw. If you get raised on the flop you get a chance to push allin/make a huge reraise, which is excellent.

However, if you are just called, you will unlikely be moved off the best hand because your pokey bet makes it looks a lot like you have a draw; thus people will become more passive when a scare card comes - perfect.

NB: I am speaking of a bet of about $70.

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

hail caeser!

for he played the turn well.

preflop i'd call too. the big reason not to is if you just can't read your opponents at all or you'll go nuts with top pair. but it's a playable lie.

flop check-raise is fine how you describe it. he doesn't know what you have when you check-raise because he'll know you know he bets the flop there.

turn it's decision time. you decided he'd bet anything if checked to and that he didn't have it and check-raised. no worries. sometimes you're wrong.

if all your reads were correct except the last, that's a good hand.

matt

Re: Results
 

I think you're right it's a sticky situation no matter what, especially if he's likely to flat call, and I think a lot of flushes will. I think the only time you can save your stack is if you can definitely fold to a raise on the turn, or if the 4th spade comes on the river.

how would you have played it if you were in your opponent's shoes?

--turnipmonster

Re: Results
 

[ QUOTE ]


how would you have played it if you were in your opponent's shoes?

--turnipmonster

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd probably do everything exactly the same as he did. I like his semi-bluff on the flop, and I like the medium-weak bet on the turn after he made his hand. If I was called on the turn I'd push, except in the case of the fourth spade dropping on the river (it would've scared me with only a ten high flush into checking behind as likely I'll only be called with a better flush.)

He immedi-called my all-in raise on the turn (to my great dismay as I knew what he had when it happened), here I think I probably would've at least given some pause to consider the possibility of losing to a higher flush on the checkraise, but would definitely lean towards a call here, mainly because my BB checkraise on the flop indicated a hand that would rather not see any more spades.

Otherwise, I think the various logistical variations of how the hand would've played out are probably just an example of just how much advantage position gives you, especially in no-limit.

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

What about the idea that he'll only call my raise with a flush, and could even fold other holdings that otherwise might pay me off such as KT, TT, or 99?

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

pot's big, less than a pot bet behind after you call, and any spade gives him a draw to the flush. so i'd just move in here if i thought i was ahead. he may call with a flush draw but at least you're making him pay for it.

Re: Results
 

Hey caesar,

Don't let the results mess with your head. Your line was almost surely best against a good player. I REALLY don't like betting out and folding to a raise here...

Better luck next time.

ML4L

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Don't call pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you insane?!?!?!?! This is an easy call.

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

Check raising the turn seems bad to me. Betting and folding to a raise, and betting and calling a raise both seem significantly better to me. I don't think he is betting this turn without AT LEAST top two plair, and you really don't want to give a free card on this very draw heavy board.

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

I tend to agree with you, Justin. Despite the numerous positive responses, I feel like I messed this one up pretty badly. I don't particularly enjoy getting most of my money in when I'm dead with no way to win the pot.

No, No, No...
 

Hey caesar,

[ QUOTE ]
I don't particularly enjoy getting most of my money in when I'm dead with no way to win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Neither does anybody. But, it does happen from time to time. The fact that this is one of those times doesn't mean that your line was poor...

I maintain that, given the opponent that you described and the depth of the stacks, betting the turn is FAR worse than checking (and usually raising). I maintain this despite the fact that you will be drawing dead a decent chunk of the time that he calls the check-raise. So, just ignore that bad feeling inside. Drawing dead happens.

I don't have time now, but if I get a chance, I'll try to give a more detailed explanation of why checking the turn is likely best here...

Better luck next time.

ML4L

Re: No, No, No...
 

ML, hope to hear from you soon because I'd really like to hear your explanation.

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

I like the flop, although you could have raised it more and it would still be ok by me.

I don't like the double check-raise on the turn tho. After you already check-raised the flop, and the scare care now hits, he bets after you check anyway. That should tell you something. I prefer betting out the turn after I check-raise the flop. If he then raises you on the turn (after you check-raised the flop, then bet the turn) you might be able to get away from the hand.

al

Checking The Turn
 

Hey caesar,

OK, here are my thoughts. First, let me state that this is a "lesser of two evils" situation. Once that spade hits, you're in a bad spot. Let's see where you do best...

If you bet, how much do you bet? Let's say that you make a smallish bet, like $400. That's an amount that lets you get away from your hand. But, the catch is, against a good player, you are going to get raised here by some hands that you still beat. A set might raise, as might a hand like KQ with a spade, etc. For whatever reason, this guy felt confident that you didn't have a flush... So, if you're making a "feeler" bet, I think that you can get as good of a read on his hand by checking as by betting. Additionally, a smallish bet might give him a decent price to draw if he has any of those hands. And, on the river, you are at an even bigger risk of laying down the winner, depending on what hits (you CANNOT auto-fold here against a good player when the 4th spade comes).

OK, what about a bigger bet? Drawing hands don't have the price to draw, and you are less likely to be bluff-raised because of the bet size relative to the amount of money still behind. But, here, you are committing a huge chunk of your stack. I'd be hard-pressed to bet $700 and fold for $900 more. Plus, again, you can't be 100% sure that he has a flush when he raises. So, all the money goes ends up going in, just as in a check-raise.

Now, what if you check the turn? Maybe he makes a pot-committing bet with a worse hand? That is good. Maybe you get a fairly reliable read and can make a great laydown without losing money as you would with a "feeler" bet? That is good. Maybe you decide to just call a smallish bet and reevaluate on the river? That is good. Maybe he has a trashy hand that he wouldn't call a dime with but might bet? That is good. All in all, I think that he is more likely to make a "mistake" if you check to him than if you come out firing. Yes, if he has a flush and you end up check-raising, he gets it all. But, if you lead out, he might get it all anyway. Or, you might make a bad laydown in a pretty big pot...

It would be one thing if you could fold on the turn every time you are raised and never make a bad laydown. But, I don't think you can. Not against that kind of player on that board.

So, here's the thing. When it comes down to it, I don't know if a raise, call, or fold is best after you check. That comes down to a read and lots of other stuff that it's tough for people to comment on. But, a check gives you options and puts you in a (relatively) more comfortable spot. If you feel that the player would bet a decent range of hands here, many of which you do not want to see the river, you go ahead and raise. Pot is big, and not but so much money left to bet.

Again, the possibility of drawing dead and being out of position makes this a pretty miserable situation. But, checking is CLEARLY the better option than betting, IMHO.

Hope this helps. If anyone would like to continue the debate, I'd like to read a well-thought out argument as to why betting is correct here. But, I don't forsee there being one... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

ML4L

Re: 10/20 NL hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry for the double post, but why do you like the checkraise with my lack of spade outs? Seems to me it would've been better if I had a chance to improve to a better hand on the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I essentially agree with most of ML4L's thoughts here. Im not looking to improve on the river here, im looking to charge any lone spade the max. I don't think you can bet and fold to a raise in this spot, and you make more money when ahead by checkraising.

Re: Checking The Turn
 

nice post, mike. basically you're saying you win in this situation a lot more often when it goes check (bet) raise than when it goes bet (get raised) and call.

--turnipmonster

Re: Checking The Turn
 

Hi ML4L,
Yours is an excellent post! I think you really hit upon it when you said,
[ QUOTE ]
It would be one thing if you could fold on the turn every time you are raised and never make a bad laydown. But, I don't think you can. Not against that kind of player on that board.


[/ QUOTE ]

caesar, you'd be feeling great about your play, had you led out and folded to a raise, only to be graciously shown the spades. Or, you'd feel pretty good if he just quietly raked the pot, as you would assume you made a good play. But tough players look for spots like this (a lead bet on the turn) against other tough players, whom they know are capable of big folds.

Re: Checking The Turn
 

And I check behind you getting a free draw to my ace of spades . . .

I really like making a bet here on the turn since letting your opponent have a free draw to a spade or to AQ or AJ or a set seems like a pretty weak play. If you face a big raise you can make a decision then, but I'd hate to let my opponent go runner-runner for free.

Best of luck - J

Re: Checking The Turn
 

Hey Johnny,

Yes, you clearly risk a free card. But, pointing out a single weakness in checking doesn't necessarily mean that betting is correct. What amount might you bet? And are AQ and AJ likely holdings given the action? And, IMO, opponent's quick call with his ten-high flush means that he was fairly certain that he wasn't up against another flush. If he knew that caesar didn't like the spade, might he semibluff instead of taking a free card...

Again, you are in a bad situation. Checking is "less bad" than betting here, given the stack sizes, his read on his opponent, and his opponent's likely hands...

ML4L

Re: Checking The Turn
 

im way late in responding to this post, but c/r the turn definently seems the way to go given the board and your opponent.