Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

(Obligatory intro:)

Hi Ed. Love the book.

(Now on with the post:)

As folks get their grubby little hands on Ed's book (not on MY copy, mind you, wash your hands first), what changes do you think you'll see in the friendly 3/6 game at your local Indian casino?

How do you attack someone who knows, understands, and applies the information in SSH?

How would you attack a table full of players who know, understand, and apply the information in SSH?

How many SSH-disciples seated at your table would it take before the concepts in SSH no longer apply?

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For what it's worth, I recall reading a thread that discussed how you'd play against a WLLHE Jones-disciple. It included advice like 'bet hands like second pair to push him off his "missed" flops'.

Just curious what you think,
PP

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

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How do you attack someone who knows, understands, and applies the information in SSH?

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How do you punish correct play?

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How would you attack a table full of players who know, understand, and apply the information in SSH?

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Find a different table.

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How many SSH-disciples seated at your table would it take before the concepts in SSH no longer apply?

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When the game conditions described in the book no longer apply.

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

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How do you punish correct play?

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Well, perhaps I was too flippant and/or general with my original questions. Let's try this one:

You're playing in a live small stakes hold'em game. The game conditions are as described in the preface. At the table are 8 fish, you, and one player who is correctly applying the concepts described in SSH with the odd exception that he views you as another one of the fish...that is, he doesn't give you credit for also understanding poker ideas. How do you change your play versus the SSH-disciple?

As an example, I'd never try to bluff the SSH-disciple on the river when a scare card came. SSH argues that in a large pot, the chance that your opponent is bluffing generally makes a heads-up call with a marginal hand profitable. Furthermore, if the pot was three handed, with SSH in the middle, I'd lead out when my draw DOES get there (instead of trying for a check-raise), expecting SSH to raise with both made hands (for value) and marginal hands (trying to prevent the overcall). I do not dispute that SSH's advice is correct, but that's an example of a change I'd make against an SSH-disciple vice some other opponent.

Is this a worthless exercise? If I'm going to play against folk who apply the ideas in this book, I'd prefer to have something other than "aww, shucks, he's playing correctly, nothing I can do, guess I better find a different game" to fall back on.

Cheers,
PP

Edit: Well, I guess *never* is a little too stringent. Let's just say "I'd be very hesitant to..." instead.

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

Is this a worthless exercise?

In a game with 8 fish and one other strong player, where does your money come from? Whom will you be playing most hands against? How much do you GAIN by optimizing your play against the other good player?

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

I'd just avoid tangling with the one other good player without a monster hand to back me up. There's one local game in my area that is very tough. I could beat it, but why? I'll stick to the soft games where I outclass the other players.

Ed's book will sell many, many copies, but few of the real fish out there will heed the advice given. SSH will make great players out of good players and COULD make winners out of losers, if they would only listen to the advice therein. Fortunately most won't (sorry Ed).

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

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If I'm going to play against folk who apply the ideas in this book, I'd prefer to have something other than "aww, shucks, he's playing correctly, nothing I can do, guess I better find a different game" to fall back on.

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You're implying that there must be some set of exploitable characteristics common to players who apply the concepts in SSH. If it were that simple, wouldn't it be in the book as something to avoid?

Nobody is perfect, and not everyone who reads SSH is going to become a clone of everyone else who has read it. If a player has weaknesses or exploitable tendencies, after reading SSH and whatever else they have read, they are going to be fairly unique to that individual, so you are going to have to figure those out at the table. But, as Ed has already said, if there are 8 fish at the table, where are your efforts better spent?

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

Honestly, the best thing you could do is probably just play your normal game. Give him the chance to screw-up by treating you like a fish. If he doesn't realize you're not calling him down with bottom pair and limping with junk, he will be the one making mistakes and not you.

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

Point well taken.

Here's where my questions came from: I have a regular home game where about half of the players study the literature and the other half are social players. As I started to study your book, I tried to view the material from two perspectives: (1) how the material can improve my game, and (2) how I anticipate my home game changing as others learn the material, and consequently what I'll need to do to counteract their new style of play. I thought the second viewpoint was interesting, and was wondering if others agreed. Apparently not [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Cheers,
PP

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

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You're implying that there must be some set of exploitable characteristics common to players who apply the concepts in SSH. If it were that simple, wouldn't it be in the book as something to avoid?


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I'd think that there must be some set of characteristic common to players who apply the SSH concepts. Namely, that they play much closer to "correct, aggressive" poker than other players do.

Perhaps "attack" and "exploitable" aren't quite the right words...maybe my original questions should have been phrased something like "How should I adjust my play to offer a lesser target to these players?"

PP

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

[ QUOTE ]
(
How do you attack someone who knows, understands, and applies the information in SSH?

How would you attack a table full of players who know, understand, and apply the information in SSH?

How many SSH-disciples seated at your table would it take before the concepts in SSH no longer apply?


PP

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It is like the Crane techinque in Karate Kid,, if down properly no can defend againist it.

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

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I have a regular home game where about half of the players study the literature

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how I anticipate my home game changing as others learn the material, and consequently what I'll need to do to counteract their new style of play

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how much will their style of play be changing??

my point is....if they've been studious about the game in the past i don't think it will be changing THAT much. maybe some refinements in there....but they were either decent tight-aggressive players before or they weren't.


the advice on how to counteract a WLLHE type player stems from the fact that lee basically advocates a rather weak-tight post-flop philosophy.
if he's going to say 'fold unless the flop REALLY hits you' then you can keep betting away at this type of player with ANY piece of the flop knowing there is a good chance they will get out of the way. additionally, if they DON'T get out of the way you then know that you are probably behind unless you have a very strong hand yourself.



as for your example before...i think a true SSHE-disciple would hopefully not peg you as a fish if you are a solid tight-aggressive player.

i play in online games all the time where a couple players are pretty tight and the rest are somewhere between awful to mediocre. i respect the EP raises of the tighties A LOT more...and try not to get too tangled up with them.

SOMETIMES (and not terribly frequently) if it's a scary flop i'll make a determination whether to take a stab at it if i think there's a chance the flop missed him AND if i think there's a chance that he will think the flop probably hit me if i bet.
if my bet just looks like a plain old steal-try then i have to factor in the possiblity that he will recognize it as a steal-attempt and come right back at me while i'm holding next to nothing.


but again.....i don't do this too much.
usually, i'll avoid a huge psychological confrontation with him and will let the pot-odds be the determining factor as to how i should proceed.

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

Someone who can fully apply them won't be at 3/6 at the local card room too long.

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

You bring up an interesting question with this post that I'll generalize to, "How do you beat a good player?"

Granted the usual theory is select a table without good player?

But at least two authors have given this Idea some thought.

Saw a book on Conjelco the other tilted "How to beat good Holdem Players at Thier Own Game" or something similar. Have yet to see a copy or a review yet. But the title does highlight an interesting issue.

The other s the Author that wrote the essay on this site, "Why Learn to Beat the ougher Games?"

Anyway, I know I don't have the answer but will propose a generic idea for discussion..

Play slightly better starting hands than your opponents on average AND build larger pots than you opponents.

The idea bein to make your EV greater than thiers and thus make yu more profitable.

Perhaps some fuzzy thinking there, but sounds esentially correct.

As part of the Building Bigger Pots" pat I would guess comes the topics of, "When can the be bluffed out of a better hand?" AND "How can I get them to put too much money in the pot?" An analysis of the playing patterns suggested in SSH might yield some answers there?

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

HPFAP is about playing versus decent players. Most poker books are aimed at beginners or are written for high level players. To my knowledge this is the first book written for reasonably good players where the goal is to teach them how to win against bad players.

On the original topic I would say that if you're in a hand with a good, studious player the concepts in HPFAP should apply. I don't have SSHE so there could certainly be some specific plays that it advocates that could be exploited but I obviously am not familiar with them.

Re: Strategy Adjustments for playing against SSH disciples
 

Ed, thanks for your contributions to this site and to the poker community. I hope your book exceeds all expections and you make tons of money and garner all the respect you are due. Thanks.

I don't think your book will be a WMD to SSH, at least I hope not. Plenty of information has been available for years to the poker community and yet good games thrive. I think most of the average readers of your book will not improve to a degree that it will hurt a good player's EV. Again, at least I hope not.

Thanks again, Ed.