I think I should quit (long)
 

My regular game is 1/2 6 max and sometimes 2/4 and 3/6 full, Party and others, and my win rate for the past 6000 table hours is about 3.5 BB/100. I decided to try SnG's a few weeks ago and at first did pretty well. For the last 2 weeks I've been sliding badly, and though I have a few 5+1's and 20+2's, mostly I've played 10+1's on Party. Current numbers for the 10's are
Tourneys 143
ITM 34%
ROI 14.12%
1st 15 or 10.64%
2nd 16 or 11.35%
3rd 37 or 19.15 %

A few weeks ago I posted 5 hands and got some responses that since then I have decided were not the best advice. I think I did ok on 4 of the 5, and the one I played wrong I no longer play that way.

The past 2 days have been especially brutal, and below are 7 hands where I've been knocked out at the first level. I'm not posting these to show how bad I'm getting beat, because that would require about 30 more posts showing all my 4ths and 3rds. I have two questions. Please evaluate my play on these hands, and tell me if my current results indicate I can't play SnG's, even at the 10+1 level. At this time I have lost all interest in pusuing tourneys, since I win fairly well at limit ring games - they were just a diversion, but they're becoming an expenseive one.
Thanks for any input.



Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

UTG+1 (t830)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t680)
MP2 (t755)
MP3 (t725)
CO (t1160)
Button (t665)
SB (t785)
Hero (t800)
UTG (t800)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to t30, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls t30, CO folds, Button folds, SB raises to t150, Hero raises to t800 (All-In), UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds, SB calls t635 (All-In).

Flop: (t1645) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t1645) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t1645) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1645

Results: <font color="white"> SB has KK </font>


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

UTG+1 (t995)
UTG+2 (t715)
MP1 (t825)
MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t785)
CO (t775)
Button (t775)
Hero (t770)
BB (t800)
UTG (t760)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls t15, MP2 calls t15, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls t15, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t75) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
Hero bets t35, BB raises to t150, MP1 calls t150, MP2 folds, Button folds, Hero raises to t755 (All-In), BB raises to t785 (All-In), MP1 calls t635.

Turn: (t2400) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t2400) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t2400


Results : <font color="white"> BB has Ks2s </font>



Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed)

BB (t500)
UTG (t1165)
UTG+1 (t1490)
MP1 (t1255)
MP2 (t915)
CO (t595)
Hero (t670)
SB (t1410)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t100, MP2 folds, CO calls t100, Hero raises to t670 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds, MP1 folds, CO calls t495 (All-In).

Flop: (t1515) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Turn: (t1515) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t1515) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1515

Result: <font color="white"> CO has 88 </font>


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

MP2 (t800)
MP3 (t890)
CO (t770)
Button (t785)
SB (t770)
BB (t800)
Hero (t800)
UTG+1 (t800)
UTG+2 (t800)
MP1 (t785)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Hero calls t15, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 raises to t90, MP1 folds, MP2 calls t90, MP3 folds, CO calls t90, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, Hero calls t75.

Flop: (t385) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG+2 bets t710 (All-In), MP2 folds, CO folds, Hero calls t710 (All-In).

Turn: (t1805) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

River: (t1805) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 2 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1805

Results: <font color="white"> UTG+2 has QQ </font>



Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (8 handed)

BB (t735)
UTG (t785)
UTG+1 (t2440)
MP1 (t655)
MP2 (t785)
CO (t865)
Hero (t770)
SB (t965)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO raises to t45, Hero raises to t125, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t110, CO calls t80.

Flop: (t415) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, CO bets t150, Hero raises to t645 (All-In), UTG+1 folds, CO calls t495.

Turn: (t1705) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t1705) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1705

Results :<font color="white"> CO has KsJs</font>


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed)

BB (t740)
UTG (t555)
Hero (t830)
MP1 (t985)
MP2 (t635)
MP3 (t815)
CO (t705)
Button (t1610)
SB (t1125)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, Hero raises to t120, MP1 calls t120, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds.

Flop: (t280) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets t280, MP1 calls t280.

Turn: (t840) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 bets t250, Hero calls t250.

River: (t1340) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 bets t200, Hero calls t180 (All-In).

Final Pot: t1720

Results: <font color="white"> MP1 has AhJh</font>


Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

CO (t680)
Button (t860)
SB (t870)
BB (t800)
UTG (t630)
UTG+1 (t1195)
Hero (t785)
MP1 (t720)
MP2 (t685)
MP3 (t775)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, Hero raises to t95, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t80.

Flop: (t230) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets t690 (All-In), UTG+1 calls t690.

Turn: (t1610) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>


River: (t1610) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1610

Results: <font color="white"> UTG+1 has Kh6h </font>

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

Ok in almost everyone of those hands you played like a fool pushing all in and then simply getting dominated by much stronger hands. Maybe if someone raises you you shouldn't automatically push all in when you could simply be beat. Try to play a little less like a maniac.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

I disagree. I think you played most of them the right way. You were bound to lose everything in most of the hands. This is 10+1 level, so you can't assume that an opponent has a great hand everytime he calls a pre-flop bet. If you keep playing like this, your ROI will eventually go up.

The only problem I see is that you have too many 3rd place finishes. Maybe you should work on your shorthanded game.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

I appreciate the reply, it's what I wanted to hear. I'll never understand SnG's, tourneys or NL poker, think I'll just stick to limit.
Appreciate it.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

Well, OK, maybe I don't stink. OK, maybe I'll try again. Nah, still don't get it.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

The Jacks hand is the only one that looks horrendously played. I'd play a lot of those hands the same, but then, I've been having a really bad run recently too. I'm having a lot of trouble adjusting to Party's structure, where if you make one mistake or one badly aimed bluff in the later rounds, you're out.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

I agree. Many of these are stadnard, most are fine, and only the JJ one looks bad.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

QQ vs KK, JJ vs QQ: rare, but it happens.

Flush to bigger flush: rare, but it happens.

AQs vs 88: coin flip.

QQ vs KJs: coin flip, but he's actually slightly ahead of you. He's got two shots at 14 outs.

QQ vs AJs: coin flip. 53.74% to 46.26%.

AA vs K6s: only 2-1.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

Mostly are bad luck, JJ hand should be folded preflop or on the flop. Luck dominates short run result, what you are getting now really doesn't mean much.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

OK, I'm all better now. Yes, it was something of a rant, needed to let off some steam. I still think I'm done with tourneys, but at least I will depart rationally. Thanks for the replies.

Against the one in a million chance I will actually play a SnG again, I would like to explain the JJ hand, which seems to be the only one I truly mangled according to the replies. I'm not sure why it drew so much attention and I guess the fact I don't see why it was played so bad says something about my lack of understanding of SnG play.

From Aleo Magus:
[ QUOTE ]

So, in the 1-3 rounds, play only the following in positions 1-7:

22-JJ (limp in, cold call min raises only and maybe not with small pairs 22-66)

PRE-FLOP STRATEGY

LEVELS 1-3

EARLY POSITION (Seats 1-7), play only a pair or AK 1. With JJ or lower, limp in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was the mistake calling the raise because it wan't a min raise? There were 2 cold callers between, so I have good implied odds. Or, was the mistake calling the push by UTG+2? If so, what about QQ,KK or AA? I'm not claiming I played it correctly, just asking what the specific mistake was and how to avoid in the unlikely future.

BTW, I don't follow AM mechanically, but do so pretty close (but looser, especially in late position) the first 3 levels.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

It's close to call or fold JJ preflop, but you should definite fold it on the flop unless you are against a known maniac. The only hand you truely dominates is TT, but many people won't raise it preflop UTG+2. Most likely you are against QQ, KK, AA, in rare cases you may be against A7, AK, AQ, X9 or total bluff, overall it doesn't justify the call. KK is definitely worth a call, QQ is marginal.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

With regards to JJ:

1) It's a paired flop.
2) You have (nearly) the worst overpair.
3) You are calling an all-in, so your fold equity is zero.

With only two of those cons, maybe, but with all three, it's kinda bad. I mean, I know it's hard to restrain ourselves with an overpair. Lord knows I've done the same mistake... In fact, I did something extremely similar just today! So it must be an easy mistake to make.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

<font color="C00000">Hero (t710)</font>
CO (t1790)
Button (t935)
<font color="C00000">SB (t1585)</font>
BB (t605)
UTG (t1035)
UTG+1 (t945)
MP1 (t395)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls t30, Hero calls t30, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks,

Flop: (t120) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets t30</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t120</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB raises to t450</font>, BB folds, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t680 (All-In)</font>, SB calls t230.

Turn: (t1510) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: (t1510) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: t1510
<font color="green">Main Pot: t1510 (t1510), between Hero and SB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by SB (t1510).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows Jd Jh (two pair, jacks and sevens).
SB shows 7d Kc (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: SB wins t1510. </font>

I should have raised pre-flop, or had the discipline to let it go post-flop, or both.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

Bleh. I hate the early rounds.

If I limp in with JJ, it's to get to the flop cheap and hit a set. If the board comes paired like that, I might take a stab (maybe even a reraise), but if I get reraised back, I throw it away. Too early to be taking chances.

If I raise preflop with JJ, I'm more likely to not see K7o hitting the flop. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

But then, I've got holes in my game, so I'm gonna go sit in the corner now.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

Heh. Good post. In my case, I think it's partly a holdover from limit, especially 6 max. At a full limit game, I could easily find times to fold this, 6 max head up it's a through ticket. So here, headup, I feel weak tight if I fold.

I looked through my PT for some JJ hands, and found a couple that won unimproved in similar situations. I liked joker's post, KK easy call, QQ marginal, JJ probably should fold without a good read.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

I would stick it out if I was you, can't remember who said it but

[ QUOTE ]
A positive ROI is a good ROI

[/ QUOTE ]

You just need to work on getting more firsts and less 3rds, I don't see much wrong with your hands you showed, perhaps a bit laggy (in places) but something we grow out of imo.

Regards ML

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

From Aleo Magus:
[ QUOTE ]

So, in the 1-3 rounds, play only the following in positions 1-7:

22-JJ (limp in, cold call min raises only and maybe not with small pairs 22-66)

PRE-FLOP STRATEGY

LEVELS 1-3

EARLY POSITION (Seats 1-7), play only a pair or AK 1. With JJ or lower, limp in.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this supposed to be serious?

k

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

I think it's meant as a starter strategy, and I think it's a very good approach for newbies. I play a few more hands than this in level 1-3, just posted this to explain why I didn't raise JJ, which is still how I would play it until the bubble.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

Thanks, I may try again in a couple weeks. What really jumps out at me is you and another poster call me a maniac and a LAG, which would shock anyone who knows me - rock is much closer to describing my limit play, along with weak tight.

I think my main problem is understanding NL concepts. I've read R/C, but 10+1 SnG's bear little resemblance to the game they talk about.

I think I'm fair at HU play, the 3rds represent a lot of getting beat all in with a better hand. The hands I posted seemed unusual to me - exiting the first level 7 times in 15 tourneys - but that was just the end of two weeks of many 3rds and 4ths.

I have a pretty good grasp of the swings possible in limit play and can withstand some pretty serious slides without blinking. I'm just not sure how that translates to SnG's, and since I'm not sure how I'm playing, a slide like this leaves me uncertain how much is the cards and how much is me. Something that only comes from experience, I guess.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

JJ is rarely not a raising hand.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

I raise with JJ and take a lot of flops down with it. I sometimes over play JJ though, and I think I know where the proper middle ground is, I just havent steped there yet.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

yes that is exactly right, a positive ROI is obviously a good one. And before in the first post, you said SNG's are becoming an expensive habbit? i dont see how a 14% ROI can be an expensive habbit. I think you should quit your whining and continue [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img].

I have a feeling your play towards the end is not that great. considering half your ITM finishes are 3rd's. I generally try to double up with 3 left so i either finish 3rd or 1st. The best advice anyone has ever given me regarding single tourneys is, you make alot more money by getting 75 1st's and 75 3rd's, rather than 50 1st's 2nd's and 3rd's.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
you said SNG's are becoming an expensive habbit? i dont see how a 14% ROI can be an expensive habbit.

[/ QUOTE ]


i noticed this right-away too.
if your ROI was -14% then i could understand a statement like this.


also - the frequency of 3rd place finishes may not be a result of poor play when it gets 3-handed..but rather leaving himself with too short of a stack to compete by playing too tight in the 4-6 players remaining.
he has a lot of 3rd AND 4th place finishes...which seems to me he is doing his best to just crawl his way along and make it to the money.
it's a possibility anyway.



on the QQ hand....i think there was a late-limper and then a raise to 150.
i don't think i would be very comfortable pushing-in here. if he's got AK then he's calling and we're in a coin-flip...which i don't want any part of in an early-round.

if he's got KK or AA then he's obviously calling....and i can definitely see this raise as indicating that he's on a bigger pair then my QQ.

he COULD have JJ or TT and i would be a 4-1 favorite if he calls (or he could very likely fold).
even if he has Ax or Kx or something i'm not a huge favorite....and there are enough players that just LOVE to call an all-in with an ace.

i just don't like the all-in push here.


anyone have opinions on a cold-call on this one and seeing where the flop takes me??
if i have an over-pair to the flop then i'm still going to get trapped and get knocked out by KK most likely....
but if there's a K or A on the flop i can get out of there with just a little damage to my stack.



it may be a weak play to just call with QQ....but i might consider it....
i might also raise the minimum and if he pushes all-in pre-flop with his KK i might even be inclined to release because now the chances that he has AA, KK or AK or much higher. maybe this is exceedingly weak-tight.


i am hardly the most expert of SNG players so i'll defer to you guys.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

I agree...someone raises it to 15 when the blinds are at 30...you'ev got QQ...call and see a flop...you were probably going to lose a lot of your stak against KK, but still...why put your whole tourney on the line with one hand so early?? It's silly.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
if your ROI was -14% then i could understand a statement like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's expensive in terms of time. It's also expensive because I make $10-$16 per hour playing low limit 6 max, 2 or 3 tables, and 14% ROI at 10+1 = $1.5 per tourney or $3 per hour (I stagger the starts, works out to about 2 per hour).

I like what you said about the QQ hand - it's kinda like I played the JJ, only I forgot to fold on the flop.

[ QUOTE ]

also - the frequency of 3rd place finishes may not be a result of poor play when it gets 3-handed..but rather leaving himself with too short of a stack to compete by playing too tight in the 4-6 players remaining.

[/ QUOTE ]

This got me to thinking about my play up to the bubble. When ITM I get pretty aggressive, and I think I play ok at that point. Levels 1 and 2 I play very similar, sort of a modified Aleo Magus, meaning I call late with a few lesser hands such as medium suited connectors, and Axs, and sometimes AJo or KQo - all for no raise of course, and fold for a raise behind.

Level 4 is usually steal time if I haven't increased my stack, and I play here like the bubble - actually, in 10+1 that often is the bubble.

That leaves level 3, and your post made me think about how I play here - the 25/50 blinds. It dawned on me that I'm always uncomfortable here. Stack is usually 500-700, so I'm in the 10X BB range, few 2x or 3x raises will get respect(edit - it also takes a large % of your stack, which you may lose to a re-raise anyway), anything bigger brings in the push rule - but then you're risking your stack to win $75, which seems too little. I think you're right, I do play very tight at this level, and I don't think I could say what the proper strategy is here.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

you couldn't have said it better, Bob...I agree completely with your analysis of the QQ hand. Why go all-in so early when you know most callers will at least be in a coin-flip with you?

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

I can see this and will probably play that way in future. What about KK and AA? Push, right?

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

I don't think it's horrible to push with AA or KK...but again...why risk your whole stack over one hand? What if AQ calls your KK and spikes an A? Or KQ calls your AA and hits 2 pair? Granted, not likely but it does happen...of course, if someone re-raises you and you have K or AA...sure, push...what the hell?

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, Q.
UTG calls t15, UTG+1 calls t15, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO raises to t45, Hero raises to t125, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t110, CO calls t80.


[/ QUOTE ]

Raise more here, I would make it more like 200.

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG with J, J.
Hero calls t15,

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO this is a must raise situation at this level on Party.

The rest all seems pretty standard, you just got unlucky. Don't give up yet, your ROI is quite low at the moment (but still reasonable) and in my experience ROI can fluctuate pretty wildly with small sample sizes.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's horrible to push with AA or KK...but again...why risk your whole stack over one hand? What if AQ calls your KK and spikes an A? Or KQ calls your AA and hits 2 pair? Granted, not likely but it does happen...of course, if someone re-raises you and you have K or AA...sure, push...what the hell?

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this serious? With AA or KK, if I can I'll get all my money in PF 100% of the time. What ifs, what ifs, KK is a big fav to AQ, I'm willing to take those odds on the first hand.

There's a big gap between AA-KK, and QQ.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

And QQ is almost as good vs AQ, but much worse vs AK, and JJ is about the same as QQ vs AK.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

I'm not saying you don't push if you get re-raised, but in the first few hands of a SNG, where the blinds + a couple of limpers may get you $35 - $40 in chips, why just push? Don't you want to extract as many chips as possible from someone with AQ, Ax, KQ JJ, whatever? You know you're going to get called by all of those hands and you will get re-raised all of the time by QQ, KK and probably AK...say AQ doesn't hit on the flop - you bet, he folds, you've collected chips from him you wouldn't have if you had pushed pre-flop. Or, he hits his Q and then you're probably going to get most if not all of his chips.

Pushing pre-flop with AA or KK is asinine in the early stages of a tourney or SNG...not only are you putting all of your chips at risk for a very small return, you're pushing out hands that will call a raise pre-flop.

You tell me, which is better? Isn't it the aim of every player to extract as many chips from their opponents as possible? The goal isn't to "win pots."

Be agressive with your great starting hands, but don't shut them out of collecting chips before it even has a chance.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying you don't push if you get re-raised, but in the first few hands of a SNG, where the blinds + a couple of limpers may get you $35 - $40 in chips, why just push? Don't you want to extract as many chips as possible from someone with AQ, Ax, KQ JJ, whatever? You know you're going to get called by all of those hands and you will get re-raised all of the time by QQ, KK and probably AK...say AQ doesn't hit on the flop - you bet, he folds, you've collected chips from him you wouldn't have if you had pushed pre-flop. Or, he hits his Q and then you're probably going to get most if not all of his chips.

Pushing pre-flop with AA or KK is asinine in the early stages of a tourney or SNG...not only are you putting all of your chips at risk for a very small return, you're pushing out hands that will call a raise pre-flop.

You tell me, which is better? Isn't it the aim of every player to extract as many chips from their opponents as possible? The goal isn't to "win pots."

Be agressive with your great starting hands, but don't shut them out of collecting chips before it even has a chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think perhaps I misunderstood your post, by taking it out of context of the thread.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

You say this is not a bad beat post, but you listed a series of hand in which you simply got unlucky. These things happen all the time and while it pays to learn how to recognize these situations every now and then (you're never going to escape from all of them), the important thing is to play thinking, solid poker.

I don't think that your play is all that LAG, as some have said. Rather, I think you suffer from something that plagued my game for quite some time. You seem to be afraid of getting sucked out on whenever you've got a big hand and so you just push all your chips in at a very early stage.

Early in a SnG, I think it's important to think about the size of each bet you make, and not just push all in because you think you have the best hand and you don't want people to draw. There are times (depending on your stack size and that of your opponent) when it is better to make about a pot sized bet on the flop and then push on the turn when draw doesn't come. As long as you measure these bets properly, many players will call off a nice chunk of chips on the flop, but then fold to a big all-in on the turn when their draw doesn't get there.

Also, don't be a caller of big bets. The JJ hand may have been tough to get away from, but over time, you will begin to see patterns in how people play big pairs, flopped sets, etc., and you will find that even again crazy 10+1 players, it is sometimes correct to fold what you think could easily be the best hand and wait for a better situation.

There are those on these boards who will tell you that you must not fold good hands to players at the lower level SnGs. While I believe there is a kernel of truth in that advice on a general level, I also believe there are individual situations (particularly early in a SnG), where you just wait for a more favorable spot.

These things are never decided during the first three rounds of play. In fact, I'm almost always shortstacked with 5-7 players remaining (holding between 400 and 700 chips). It is at this stage (50-100 blinds) that should try to make your move and play a little LAG. But it should almost always be with pre-flop all-ins when you are first in, preferably against BBs with medium stacks who have shown an ability to fold their blind.

I think your ROI will improve the more you play, especially if you devote real time to these games. I am a 3/6 to 6/12 limit player myself, but online I have found a much more stable (lower variance) source of poker income in the low level SnGs than I could ever get from online 3/6 or 5/10 play.

Whatever you decide to do, I hope it works out for the best. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

Great post, very good observations. I didn't mean it as a bad beat post in the sense I wasn't looking for sympathy, but some evaluation of my play as well as how normal to get this number of beats in such a short span.

What level of SnGs do you play to equal your former income from limit play? I would like to have SnGs first as a variation from grinding at limit, and second as a reliable backup should the limit games I play dry up.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Rather, I think you suffer from something that plagued my game for quite some time. You seem to be afraid of getting sucked out on whenever you've got a big hand and so you just push all your chips in at a very early stage.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would say that is what I am doing at the moment, would you say it was a form of tilt?

Regards ML

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

I think he's right, but for me it's not tilt. I think it's more a lack of understanding of NL poker. I'm fairly new to both SnG and NL, and pushing is just easier than thinking, espcially when you are uncertain of correct play.

Re: I think I should quit (long)
 

I have had massive problems with KK QQ and JJ in particular, I lack confidence in my judgements and find opponents moves sometimes incredulous, I tend to make a strong preflop play and find it hard to play when over cards hit. I end up pushing with these a lot now so I don't have to put them down, my game is broken.

Regards ML