AJs
 

I am UTG in my usual extremely loose 10-20 game and raise with AdJd. I had been at the table for about 90 minutes and this was the first hand that I had paid to see the flop except for the occasional free play in the big blind.


6 way action including both blinds...$120 pot.


Flop: 2d3d5c


I bet. 5 guys call before the bb raises. I 3 bet it.


3 guys now fold. The sb (a very loose player) coldcalls and the bb calls. $240 pot.


Turn: 4s


The sb bets. BB calls. I raise. Sb makes it $60 to go. bb folds. I call. $380 pot.


River: 3s


sb bets. I call.


Any comments?

Re: AJs
 

i would just call the turn and call the river, i dont really want sb to 3-bet the turn.


he's loose, but is he clueless? it is obvious you have at least one ace.


would he 3-bet the turn with an ace? would he try to make you lay down the ignorant end of the straight on a bluff?

Re: AJs
 

I don't like your raise on the turn, and your 3 bet on the flop is marginal. It depends on your read of SB, and if you think you could drive out a 5-6/6-7.

Re: AJs
 

First of all A-Js is not a lucky hand. Many of my sob stories are the result of playing this piece of cheese. It's definitely over-rated in the Sklansky hand rankings. I would say it's a group 9 hand in live play. Since you chose to put yourself in this pickle I think you played the hand very well on all streets.

Re: AJs
 

I think you are probably beat but I like the way you played the hand. I don't think I would have played any different on any of the streets. Perhaps I would have just called the turn because one of your opponents could have a six but you still have the flush draw so a raise is not bad.


Was this a live game? Are you back playing at the Holiday Inn? It has been very good lately... better than normal if you can imagine.

Re: AJs
 

I've read the other threads so I'll comment on them. I think your three bet on the flop is a very good play. I am assuming you would have checked the turn if the straight didn't hit. Nf criticized your turn raise and I think he makes a good point that the sb would know there is a good chance that have an ace so he likely would not bet out unless he has a 6. As far as raising with AJs, I don't have a problem with that. This isn't a premium hand and you know that so if you miss the flop you are able to get away from it without losing much. Plus you hadn't played a hand in a long ime so you would think your raise would garner more respect... guess it didn't this time with all those callers.

Re: AJs
 

What is required for something to become a "lucky hand"?


AJs should be a Group 9 hand? I'd like to see your revised rankings. Are you still keeping the monster 74s in Group 8?

Re: AJs
 

"Nf criticized your turn raise and I think he makes a good point that the sb would know there is a good chance that you have an ace so he likely would not bet out unless he has a 6."


I don't understand this point. Firstly, I 3 bet the flop. That should tell the sb that it is unlikely that I have an Ace (unless it's AA). It is more likely that I have JJ,QQ,KK and the like i.e. the normal 3 betting hands on this type of flop. So, when the 4 comes down, anyone with an Ace and therefore a bicycle would be taking a chance by checking to me because I simply may not bet my overpair.


But even if the sb knew or suspected that I have an Ace, he surely must know that I don't have a 6 (while I can't be sure that he doesn't have a 6). So, if the sb had an Ace, he should bet and then 3 bet me if given the chance.


Now, I raised thinking that there is a good chance that the sb also only has an Ace (after all he coldcalled 2 bets on the flop) and I have a flush freeroll. Plus, there is one other player in there (the bb) whose money could be useful if I were to go on to hit the flush.


Anyway, the result was no good: the sb won with K6 offsuit. He called 3 bets on the flop ($20 cold) with that hand. The game was at the Holiday Inn and if I were to tell you who it was, you would not at all be surprised.


In any event, I think that the turn raise is debatable as are the flop 3 bet and perhaps, even the preflop raise.


Perhaps others will comment on those aspects.


...and yes, the HI games have somehow become even easier to beat than they were when I last played there regularly which was in the first 7 months of 2000...I didn't think that was possible.

Re: AJs
 

see my post below Clinteroo's.


While I acknowledge that the turn raise is questionable, I don't think the uncertainty flows from what you are saying.

Re: AJs
 

I wonder if we can flesh out the flop 3 bet. What are the pros and cons?

Re: AJs
 

Unless SB just plays his own cards, he has to know there is a pretty high chance you made a wheel on the turn. Would a reraise on the turn have earned you a check on the river, unless he had you beat for certain (allowing you to lay down with a clear conscience)? I'm assuming here that your 4th bet would "cap" it; if it doesn't, it's not as good an idea.


Anyway, on the river it's probably close between calling and folding. Your pot odds are 20:1, but your chance of winning can't be much better than that unless this guy might take a desparate shot at you when it should be obvious what you have. I would call just so I don't have to torture myself wondering if I folded a winner. I'm guessing he shows a 56.

Re: AJs
 

I'm not crazy about raising under the gun with AJs in a loose game. Even though you haven't played a hand in a while, the chances of picking up the blinds are probably very slim and nobody's going to throw away AJ or AQ at a loose table. Even though you're more likely to have a much better hand than your opponents, you should really want to keep the pot small so that you can protect your hand when you flop a pair. I don't think you need to raise to tie people to the hand, because in a loose game they'll probably call down your flush anyway, regardless of the pot size.


I like 3-betting the flop. If you can eliminate a bare ace or a bare six, you've done well. If not, you've built a huge pot with the best draw. You also may be able to get a free river card.


I also like raising the turn. You could have the best hand (45 or 44 isn't out of the question for the SB), you could be on a freeroll, and if you don't or aren't you still have a big draw. I think the combination makes the raise correct. Also, by raising, you may still get bet into on the river, giving you an additional bet when you make your flush since you represented a made hand on the turn, whereas if you just call the turn, you may get checked to on the river.

Re: AJs
 

OK, serious answer this time.


In a tighter game I think the 3 bet is pretty clearly the best play. there could easily be an A-Q, A-K out and you would like your ace to be good if you hit. There is also a small chance that you win unimproved.


In this loose game you certainly don't mind that bb check raised but you also have to severely discount your overcard outs. Would you 3 bet if you knew that everyone would call? I don't think it matters much either way. In these loose games I tend to play much more passively until I have a hand.

Re: AJs
 

"Unless SB just plays his own cards, he has to know there is a pretty high chance you made a wheel on the turn. Would a reraise on the turn have earned you a check on the river, unless he had you beat for certain (allowing you to lay down with a clear conscience)? I'm assuming here that your 4th bet would "cap" it; if it doesn't, it's not as good an idea."


He would know that I have a wheel only after I raise. He would not know it when it is his turn to act. The 4th bet would not cap it as the bb had folded to the sb's 3 bet leaving us heads-up.


"Anyway, on the river it's probably close between calling and folding. Your pot odds are 20:1, but your chance of winning can't be much better than that unless this guy might take a desparate shot at you when it should be obvious what you have. I would call just so I don't have to torture myself wondering if I folded a winner."


I disagree strongly on this point. I think a river call is mandatory beacuse the sb could easily have 3 bet me on the turn with an Ace because he knows that I can't have a 6 and he knows that I can't know whether he has an Ace or a 6.


"I'm guessing he shows a 56."


Close. K6. Effectively the same thing. The pot had $210 when he was faced with calling two more bets cold on the flop. I suppose his call wasn't all that criminal.

more comments
 

After reading the other responses, I have no problem with your reraise on the flop, especially since it sounds like from your description of the game you could usually expect many callers for your reraise. Your 1.9:1 draw will beat whatever any of them is drawing at when you make it, so the more money and players in the pot the better. Often you would have 12 outs to win, making you even money to beat the field (too bad it turns out in this case you only have 9 outs). Sometimes your flop reraise will create the extra 3 outs for you, which makes it all the better.


I also like the turn raise, since the SB might have a wheel with you (the freeroll you mentioned), or could even be getting frisky with two pair or a set against your perceived overpair. While you might be losing to a 6, the possibilities that you are winning or freerolling combined with your chances to beat the 6 if you are behind would seem to make the raise a play.


I thought the most debatable plays were your raise preflop (which probably doesn't affect your EV much either way, but increases your SD) and the call on the river, which is mostly a function of the pot odds and knowing your opponent; since I don't know your opponent, all I can say is use your best judgement.

Re: AJs
 

You make good points about the possibility for a tie on the river. I still think you are usually beaten, as this guy probably isn't thinking at the level you talk about and would likely call the turn raise if he thought he was tied, but the somewhat higher chance to tie should swing a close fold/call to the side of calling.

Re: AJs
 

"First of all A-Js is not a lucky hand..."


Does this mean that you disagree with the preflop raise?

Re: AJs
 

Haven't read the other responses yet, but I'm assuming the main topic of conversation is your 3-bet on the flop. I kinda like it, since a lot of good could come from it. Mainly, eliminating some of the hands you don't want in, while continuing to collect implied odds from hands you'd want in when you make one of your hands.


I'd also expect some controversy from your raise on the turn. Honestly, I think it's close. But I like the raise. You turned a made hand. If someone has a 6 (65s?) God bless 'em. You still have the re-draw and you're free-rolling on any other aces. You also make up for any lost bets on the river if a 6 comes or the board pairs and you're forced to slow down. Hope you won...

Re: AJs
 

"I don't understand this point. Firstly, I 3 bet the flop. That should tell the sb that it is unlikely that I have an Ace (unless it's AA)."


you may 3-bet the flop with Ad-Ku, 6 outs to top/top and 3-outs to the gutshot, and a backdoor flush draw if you feeling spunky, and probably you'd 3-bet the flop with Ad-xd(i would, you did), im not sure how much of a stretch it would be to put you on these hands in the heat of battle, but i would definately consider them possibilities once you raise the turn(more like Ad-Z). also AA is an option. i dont think youd raise this turn with KK, QQ, or JJ.


once you raise the turn it becomes almost certain you have an ace, making it easy for him to laydown some hands you beat that he may continue betting with. also he wins extra bets when he does have the 6.


i dont think its wrong to raise the turn, i just would opt to call. that maybe makes it less likely he'll pay off my river raise if i hit my flush though.


interesting hand.

Re: AJs
 

I agree with all your comments.

Re: AJs
 

In a LAG, I should think you'd get into trouble raising UTG

with AJs over the long haul;I'd rather flat call and see what the flop brings. With all the loose betting, you can play this from behind and get away from it if the flop isn't to your liking.