It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

PP 10/20 full I'm pretty sure Flair's at the table though uninvolved in this hand but why he is at this table I don't know because it's pretty bad. I wanted to run myself except for I had great position against Villain who was pretty clueless (worse than his numbers). Villain is 28/1.8/1.63 over only 80 hands

All fold to Villain who open limps from the CO (say no more), I raise with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and only Villain continues

2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
He bets, I call anticipating raising the turn

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
He bets, I raise, he 3 bets, I fold ??

What say you and why?

If you advocate raising the flop please lay out your plan for the turn when Villain calls the raise.

Thanks for any comments.

Will check back in the morn to follow up.

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
PP 10/20 full I'm pretty sure Flair's at the table though uninvolved in this hand but why he is at this table I don't know because it's pretty bad. I wanted to run myself except for I had great position against Villain who was pretty clueless (worse than his numbers). Villain is 28/1.8/1.63 over only 80 hands

All fold to Villain who open limps from the CO (say no more), I raise with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and only Villain continues

2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
He bets, I call anticipating raising the turn

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
He bets, I raise, he 3 bets, I fold ??

What say you and why?

If you advocate raising the flop please lay out your plan for the turn when Villain calls the raise.

Thanks for any comments.

Will check back in the morn to follow up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quick note. If it is the table I am thinking of, I almost left... but I stayed because just as I was about to sit out my BB I looked around and noticed no one was showing up as higher than an 8% PFR, and the overall aggression was low.

I was in a low variance kind of mood tonight... END HIJACK

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

since villains hand ranges is somewhat large, his hand could easily hold either a K or a 2, possibly even a larger pair than you...why not just call the turn and call the river (bet if checked to)? this prevents you from folding the best hand but a bet is still going in on all the streets...

i should also add that this should be somewhat read dependent, but an agg factor of 1.6 is decently aggressive...your read will tell you whether or not he will donk the turn with a 4/hearts/66, or if he will always have a K here...

also, is it possible that he would take a shot at a bluff on the turn and possibly give up on the river?

also, im raising the flop...there are too many cards that could come on the turn and river that will "scare" into missing value or folding the winner, i think that waiting fo r the turn would be better with a bigger pair, maybe QQ+...

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
PP 10/20 full I'm pretty sure Flair's at the table though uninvolved in this hand but why he is at this table I don't know because it's pretty bad. I wanted to run myself except for I had great position against Villain who was pretty clueless (worse than his numbers). Villain is 28/1.8/1.63 over only 80 hands

All fold to Villain who open limps from the CO (say no more), I raise with 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and only Villain continues

2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
He bets, I call anticipating raising the turn

K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
He bets, I raise, he 3 bets, I fold ??

What say you and why?

If you advocate raising the flop please lay out your plan for the turn when Villain calls the raise.

Thanks for any comments.

Will check back in the morn to follow up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I do the same on the turn.

If I raise the flop, I bet the turn and fold to a check raise. If he donks on the K, I seriously consider folding right there.

On my worst days I call a turn donk bet and the river.

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
since villains hand ranges is somewhat large, his hand could easily hold either a K or a 2, possibly even a larger pair than you...why not just call the turn and call the river (bet if checked to)? this prevents you from folding the best hand but a bet is still going in on all the streets...


[/ QUOTE ]

I felt the turn bet was for value as well as for protection. I didn't want villain to see a cheap river and hit his potential 6 outer.

[ QUOTE ]

also, is it possible that he would take a shot at a bluff on the turn and possibly give up on the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

My read was that Villain would never bluff. He was not strong enough nor knowledable enough to bluff; sort of a first level thinker, at best.

[ QUOTE ]
also, im raising the flop...there are too many cards that could come on the turn and river that will "scare" into missing value or folding the winner, i think that waiting fo r the turn would be better with a bigger pair, maybe QQ+...

[/ QUOTE ]

I, in a sense, felt almost exactly the opposite here. LEt me try and explain... bear with me.

First, I had made up mmy mind to bet the turn no matter what card came so I was not feeling as if I was going to miss value.

Second, with QQ, I would need a lot less protecting; this, given that there are only 2 overs to my pair. So 99 needs more protecting, right. What does raising the flop do to protect my hand? Nada. The flop raise looks more like a free card play than a protecting or a value raise. It, therefore, invites a donk and a donk from him invites a raise from me and yeeeeshhhh where am I?

My thinking was against this player, a bad, unthinking player, I could and did easily fold to the turn 3 bet. He would have done better to just smooth call the turn and check call the river.

This was a very difficult hand for me. Should it have been?

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

I'd probably call the flop, turn, and river (or bet if checked to). If he's bluffing, let him keep doing it. If he has a 4 you are way ahead, if he has a 2 or K you are way behind. Plus, since he's clueless, he might just 3-bet a worse hand or flush draw and put in you a tough spot.

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
since villains hand ranges is somewhat large, his hand could easily hold either a K or a 2, possibly even a larger pair than you...why not just call the turn and call the river (bet if checked to)? this prevents you from folding the best hand but a bet is still going in on all the streets...


[/ QUOTE ]

I felt the turn bet was for value as well as for protection. I didn't want villain to see a cheap river and hit his potential 6 outer.

[ QUOTE ]

also, is it possible that he would take a shot at a bluff on the turn and possibly give up on the river?


[/ QUOTE ]

My read was that Villain would never bluff. He was not strong enough nor knowledable enough to bluff; sort of a first level thinker, at best.



[/ QUOTE ]

This two statements can't coexist. Either you are worried he would hit his 6 outer (meaning he had two overcards and is bluffing) or he will never bluff, it can't be both. IMO, with that aggression factor, he has to be capable of a bluff. Say he only has six outs, the pot isn't very big. I'd rather call the turn and see if I could get him for another bet on the river. Raising can get him to fold a hand with 6 outs, do you want that?

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

"I felt the turn bet was for value as well as for protection. I didn't want villain to see a cheap river and hit his potential 6 outer. "

I feel that in this pot getting some value is more important than protection...this pot isn't big and you are heads up...

"My read was that Villain would never bluff."

what do you put him on when he donks the turn? if he is never bluffing and plays straightforward then i don't think you will be ahead here often, and probably shouldn't call the first bet...

you seem to be basing your flop/turn action on protecting your hand, this is not a situation where protection should be your first concern...the pot is small and you are heads up, this is not a situation where your opponent is getting the odds to peel with a small number of outs...the purpose of waiting till the turn to raise is to prevent people from sucking out on the river, in those situations you have to face them with two bets in order to accomplish this, but in a small pot your opponent will be making a mistake to call even one bet depending on what his hand is...

hopefully this is makes sense, its been a while since i posted and im trying to get back into things... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
"My read was that Villain would never bluff."

what do you put him on when he donks the turn? if he is never bluffing and plays straightforward then i don't think you will be ahead here often, and probably shouldn't call the first bet...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, so true. But I felt that by not raising the flop I may have encouraged him to lead the turn (remember, I viewed him as a first level thinker) with his flush draw or underpair and that I would be folding the best hand. So, in order to be certain that I was not folding the best hand, I raised the turn, got re-raised and folded, certain that I was behind.

So the real question is...

1. Did I lose more than I should have in this case, a case where I am became convinced on the turn that I was behind?

2. Had I been ahead, would I have gained sufficient value and offered up sufficient protection to my hand?

I realized that you hadn't posted in a long time. You were one of the first posters that I read with clarity back when I began a year or so ago.

Anyway, welcome back. You are still clear of thought and expression but probably could have chosen an easier post/poster to "get back into it." [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

This is fine if you think he frequently has a draw on the flop, and if you think he will frequently check/fold the river if he misses instead of firing again.

I don't think that applies to too many people, but it might apply here.

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

thanks for the nice words...and as for picking an easy hand to work my way back with...eff that, being wrong is better than being right...

my problem is still that since villain is a first level thinker, he is only saying "look what i have in my hand"...

he limps in late position, but based on your stats he is not a total anything plays kind of guy, so he probably has some kind of hand whether it be good or only marginal, it probably isn't some piece of [censored]...

on the flop he donks, this board? wtf??? he knows that you raised preflop and even if he isn't really puttin you on a hand he still knows this...he is saying "hey, i like my hand, lets put in some bets"...he could have an overpair, trips, top pair, maybe even a flush draw...we have an overpair so we call (i still dig a raise here, but whatever)...

on the turn our first level villain sees a K, but hes still betting? most loose/passive players are checking this to a preflop raiser even if they aren't actively trying to put you on a hand...most will say "big card...preflop raiser...call, call, call, call, call"...i think that this is a place where if you think that putting two more bets into the pot is the best idea then one should go in on the turn and one on the river...show this hand down if you want to put in two bets...while its true that you can definitely fold to a 3bet, are you really gonna be ahead often if villain calls the raise and calls a river bet? or would you take a free showdown?

do you think he will bet the river with a hand that you beat if you just call the turn? will he check/call the river with a hand you beat (something like 77/A4)?

bleh, poker is hard...tear me a new one if im being retarded [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I felt that by not raising the flop I may have encouraged him to lead the turn (remember, I viewed him as a first level thinker) with his flush draw or underpair and that I would be folding the best hand. So, in order to be certain that I was not folding the best hand, I raised the turn, got re-raised and folded, certain that I was behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you are thinking this, why not just call the turn and call the river? You're still paying 2 bets, same as if you raise the turn, plus there's a chance (however small) you win the pot at showdown.

If you call the turn/river and lose, you lose two bets which is the same as folding to a 3-bet.

If you call the turn/river and win, you win 2 bets.

If you raise the turn and he folds, you win 1 bet.

If you raise the turn and he calls, then calls the river and you win, you win 3 bets.

If you raise the turn and he calls, then calls the river and you lose, you lose 2 bets.

Explain to me why, if you're afraid of folding the best hand on the turn, it's not better to call/call than raise/fold. With call/call you cannot fold the best hand.

Is it just a matter of how often he will fold a hand that beats you, either to the raise or a turn bet?

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
But I felt that by not raising the flop I may have encouraged him to lead the turn (remember, I viewed him as a first level thinker) with his flush draw or underpair and that I would be folding the best hand. So, in order to be certain that I was not folding the best hand, I raised the turn, got re-raised and folded, certain that I was behind.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you are thinking this, why not just call the turn and call the river? Explain to me why, if you're afraid of folding the best hand on the turn, it's not better to call/call than raise/fold. With call/call you cannot fold the best hand.


[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, I think I played it wrong and should have folded to the initial turn bet. As played I think was 2nd best.

The turn call down line I think may be least beneficial because when I'm ahead I win 1 or 2 bets and when I'm behind I lose 2 bets.

By raising the turn, when ahead, I win 1,2 or 3 BB while at the same time charging villain if he is on a flush draw.

But, again, I do think, as Thirddan has pointed out that the pot was small enough that I should have let it go immediately on the turn.

I suck at these type hands!

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]

But, again, I do think, as Thirddan has pointed out that the pot was small enough that I should have let it go immediately on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the numbers you listed and the action thus far, I think folding to the initial turn bet would have been a disaster.

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

But, again, I do think, as Thirddan has pointed out that the pot was small enough that I should have let it go immediately on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the numbers you listed and the action thus far, I think folding to the initial turn bet would have been a disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn... just when I thought I had it!

OK... How do you proceed after Villain leads the turn?

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]

Damn... just when I thought I had it!

OK... How do you proceed after Villain leads the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason I don't like folding to the turn bet is that villain's play is very much in line with a pocket pair 33-88. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a heart draw or A2 or A4, maybe even just something like JT (perhaps you had been isoraising him a lot and he got annoyed by it?).


I've thought about this hand a good bit, and the best conclusion that I can reach is to play it the same as yours. The K is really a good card for us, it makes sense for us to hold it (to villian) and I think if we get threebet here on the turn we are good basically never.

Close behind in terms of EV I think is calling the turn and calling the river UI, betting if checked to. This line allows us to showdown our hand for the same price, but gets less value out of hands that would have paid off a turn raise and river bet. And this villian seems like the kind to do just that (I would doublecheck his WTSD although with those preflop stats it's most likely high).

Of course if he's the kind of player to semibluff the big streets hard, or to go to war in a HU pot OOP with a flush draw, I like raising the flop. This will get us threebet sometimes, which we can call down, and sometimes he will checkraise us on the turn which we can call down. But from the stats you provided he doesn't seem like that kind of player.

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
The K is really a good card for us, it makes sense for us to hold it (to villian) and I think if we get threebet here on the turn we are good basically never.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed.

[ QUOTE ]
Of course if he's the kind of player to semibluff the big streets hard, or to go to war in a HU pot OOP with a flush draw, I like raising the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way he's like this. See initial read.

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
No way he's like this. See initial read.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then IMO you played it perfectly.

Your initial read was "very clueless." I wasn't sure exactly what that meant. Given his preflop numbers he seems loosepassive, but yeah.

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

"Pretty clueless" doesn't tell us nearly enough about him to move forward.

In general I think I like just raising the flop and moving on from there.

Re: It\'s heads up... I raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Pretty clueless" doesn't tell us nearly enough about him to move forward.

In general I think I like just raising the flop and moving on from there.

[/ QUOTE ]

To be precise, I said the following as to the reads on Villain....

"I had great position against Villain who was pretty clueless (worse than his numbers). Villain is 28/1.8/1.63 over only 80 hands"

and

"All fold to Villain who open limps from the CO (say no more)"