Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

We all know how good he is in tourney play. There is no question about that and he's having a good WSOP so far, but why oh why is he so bad at cash games?? What is the definitive reason. I believe I read once that Negreanu said he lacks a fundamental knowledge of the cards which I find hard to believe. Is is that difficult to be good at both??

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

Phil is a horrible steamer.
When you steam in a tournament, the worst you can do is lose your buy in. When you steam in a cash game, you can lose big time.

The big game players like Todd Brunson can take beats. Did you see him lose with AA vs AT all in preflop that time on tv? It was like it was no big deal to him. If Hellmuth ever took a beat like that, we'd never hear the end of it.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

If you watch the heads up championship or any hellmuth game he seems to have a case of table coach denial.
"oh yeah keep going in as 3:1 dog against me"
when the other player was about 55:45 dog

He's a very good player but self denial can cost you when you sit with the same people for a looooong time in a cash game.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

Wow- so you think it mostly comes down to steam control and not his lack of knowledge of cash game strategy vs tourney strategy. Makes sense.... I can't believe Negreanu's statement could be even close to being correct.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

Negraneau may have also been refering to the fact that Phil is not respected in any game besides hold em.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

Could it be because donkeys always draw?

Kevin...

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

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Could it be because donkey's always draw?

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Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

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Could it be because donkey's always draw?

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Wrong. Stop being a nit.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

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Wow- so you think it mostly comes down to steam control and not his lack of knowledge of cash game strategy vs tourney strategy. Makes sense.... I can't believe Negreanu's statement could be even close to being correct.

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And what did Danny-boy have to say?

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

Well, like I said, I rememember him writing or saying via online chat that he lacks a fundamental knowledge of cards for cash games. Something along those lines. I definitely remember the "fundamental knowledge" line which took me by surprise. Seems the steam factor would be huge, but it just surprises me that someone of his "world class" status can't handle beats as they are a regular part of the game. Back to the shirtless ninja moves for him eh????

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

his technical skills concerning cash games are debateable. phil has argued that he truely has the technical abilities that some of the best in the world have, but its his steaming that causes him to fail and he cant control it. i think there is some merit to phil's arguement, but i certainly dont think he is one of the best in the world with technical skills. his strengths in nl come from reading players, not from calculating equity.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

His reads do seem to be scary good.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

The skills needed to beat cash games are different than tournaments. Phil is really a NL tourney specialist.

(Also, as others have mentioned, tilt control is more important in cash games.)

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Phil just played to many hands. Mason talked about it in his Poker Essays(which number escapes me at the moment) but a player like Phil, who holds his poker ability on such a high level, would seem like he would be playing to many hands. Then the steam factor which has been talked about probably comes into play and he just goes in a downward spiral.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

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The big game players like Todd Brunson can take beats. Did you see him lose with AA vs AT all in preflop that time on tv? It was like it was no big deal to him. If Hellmuth ever took a beat like that, we'd never hear the end of it.

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Jesus did you see Todd Brunson FREAK the phuck out at the dealer last night, when she made a mistake and almost delt the turn without him acting. "What are you doing???" "What were you thinking?"

I was so so about him before that, but now Todd Brunson looks like a complete cock. (not that anyone cares what I think about him)

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

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The big game players like Todd Brunson can take beats. Did you see him lose with AA vs AT all in preflop that time on tv? It was like it was no big deal to him. If Hellmuth ever took a beat like that, we'd never hear the end of it.

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Jesus did you see Todd Brunson FREAK the phuck out at the dealer last night, when she made a mistake and almost delt the turn without him acting. "What are you doing???" "What were you thinking?"

I was so so about him before that, but now Todd Brunson looks like a complete cock. (not that anyone cares what I think about him)

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Was this on Poker Superstars?

And yeah, Todd Brunson has always struck me as kind of a douchebag. I can imagine its hard being Doyle Brunson's son... but I don't know, something about Todd Brunson just makes me dislike him. Maybe it's just his general demeanor. Looks like a spoiled brat (which he likely was).

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

Yeah and he quite possibly has THE worst hairstyle in all of poker history. He should be the posterboy for http://www.mulletsgalore.com

http://www.ipfpoker.com/images/36ad3...975c833dc2.jpg

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

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Looks like a spoiled brat (which he likely was).

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What does a spoiled brat look like? My first thought is not of someone that looks like Todd Brunson that is for sure.

Why was he likely A) Spoiled and B) a brat? Becuase he father has a lot of money? Or because of they way he looks.

On a side note, most people that come from little ($$ wise) and later in life have a lot ($$ wise) often make an extra effort NOT to spoil their children.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

A spoiled brat, to me, generally looks like a disgruntled person while doing something that most people would be very happy doing (I.E., playing poker professionally).

And besides that, quit being anal. My impression of him is that he's a spoiled brat. Your impression is clearly different. I certainly don't care enough to argue about it.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

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I wouldn't be surprised in the least if Phil just played to many hands.

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Did you read his Card Player article where he talks about raising every hand preflop in the dark? "It's called experimentation," he says. Terrible.

Barry g\'s Phil H analysis
 

As people have noted. His steam control is the worst out of everyone.

Phil Hellmuth, Jr.
Aggressiveness: 7
Looseness: 7
Short-handed: 7
Limit: 6
No-limit: 7
Tournaments: 7
Side games: 3
Steam factor: 2
Against weak players: 8
Against strong players: 5

Best game: Tournament no-limit hold'em
Weakness: Self control

Phil may go down as the pioneer in a method of playing a lot of hands and making small bets and raises that keep opponents in the pot, the theory being that he will make better decisions than they do on subsequent streets. This strategy guarantees large fluctuations and has a lot to say for it against weak opposition. This method would not work as well in a cash game where there is no rush to build up a chip stack and by virtue of playing too many pots opponents can easily take the betting lead away. In a tournament, the extra fear of going busted can keep your opponents at bay and the bad players are confused by what looks like mass hysteria to them. When Phil has his banter and his A-game working, he not only can control the table, but he can mesmerize the entire room.

Players who have been successful adopting a similar style are Gus Hansen, Layne Flack, Antonio Esfandiari, Alan Goehring, and to a small degree Daniel Negreanu.

Phil has assured me that he is a much better player than I give him credit for. He feels he has enough technical skill to win at higher limits, but when he has tried in the past, he often gotten derailed by his lack of self-control.

Amusing anecdote

I first played with Phil in a no-limit side game in Los Angeles in 1992. I didn’t pay attention to tournament poker back then, but I had heard that he was a cocky kid who had won a big tournament. He was playing fast and loose and showing his hands and needling people whenever he outplayed them. Well, I was pretty cocky too. Phil opened for a raise, I reraised and Phil called. After the flop, I bet, Phil raised and I reraised him all-in. He thought for a while, showed me top pair and then folded. I showed him Deuce-Three offsuit which bore no relation to the flop.

Phil stood up and said, “Nice play buddy, but that’s the stupidest thing you’ve ever done. Do you realize that giving me that kind of information is going to cost you all of your money? It’s because of players like you that I make millions of dollars a year playing poker.”


http://www.barrygreenstein.com/player.htm

Re: Barry g\'s Phil H analysis
 

Phil exploits the weak players in tournaments and builds up a chip stack. he cannot do that in cash games because chip stack is pretty much irrelevant. like greenstein said on that 4 part video interview with cardplayer.com yesterday about negranue, the same applies to hellmuth.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

Maybe because he follows his own advice in "Play Poker Like the Pros."

There was a discussion in the MTT forum about how McEvoy plays is the same predictable ABC manner that he recommends in his books. Maybe, similar is tur for Hellmuth. The sections of his book on tournamwnt play were certainly much better than the section on limit holdem cash games.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

One can find Phil playing in 150-300 and 200-400 limit holdem games on Ultimate Bet and other high limit games like 80-160 triple draw, and even higher live games. Some here are talking about him like he is a total mark who can hardly read the board. I know it's fair game to critique celebrities and successful people, but come on give it a rest 2+2. On a day to day basis Phil Hellmuth never crosses my mind; my thoughts about him are neither positive nor negative. He is what he is. When you guys take all the time in the world to dissect his character flaws and critique his skills you're really sending a powerful message that Hellmuth is significant to you, and that his existence affects you. Let it go.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

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Could it be because donkey's always draw?

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Wrong. Stop being a nit.

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[img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

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One can find Phil playing in 150-300 and 200-400 limit holdem games on Ultimate Bet and other high limit games like 80-160 triple draw, and even higher live games. Some here are talking about him like he is a total mark who can hardly read the board. I know it's fair game to critique celebrities and successful people, but come on give it a rest 2+2. On a day to day basis Phil Hellmuth never crosses my mind; my thoughts about him are neither positive nor negative. He is what he is. When you guys take all the time in the world to dissect his character flaws and critique his skills you're really sending a powerful message that Hellmuth is significant to you, and that his existence affects you. Let it go.

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Dissecting flaws of people whose flaws consist of dissecting the flaws of others is making the red light on top of my "palpable irony sensor" flash on and off while a loud siren blares...

...but I do agree with your point.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

I don't think that there's anything out of the ordinary about talking about a highly visible player on a TV tournament poker forum. The fact that he's possibly the most immature and egomaniacal player on the tournament circuit, combined with the fact that he's also supposed to be one of the best, makes this discussion completely worthwhile.

I personally think he's nowhere near as good as he's given credit for being. Look at the size of the fields in most of his bracelet wins, they're tiny compared to today's fields. He can whine about being outdrawn as much as he wants; he doesn't seem to realize that everyone playing in these tournaments has the same problem, yet none of the other top players manage to complain about it even 10% as much. If I was involved in a hand where he started moaning about my play, I'd tell him to stop being a baby and then possibly start criticizing his play. That would be fun.

As for a lack of fundamental knowledge of the cards, this is almost certainly true. No one has mentioned the fact that he made a real money wager that AKo was a favorite over AKs heads up. This is like 16 levels below the knowledge of any competent cash game player. Also, we've seen him multiple times quote odds that were just terribly wrong. Remember when he accused a guy of "drawing dead", and the guy won the hand at show down. That's just stupid, 5 outs isn't drawing dead. Maybe if he played cash games well he would know that.

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

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If I was involved in a hand where he started moaning about my play, I'd tell him to stop being a baby and then possibly start criticizing his play. That would be fun.

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no you wouldn't

Re: Why is Hellmuth so bad at cash games????
 

yeah, why would you guys discuss a poker player who plays in wpt and other televised tournaments here?...oh yeah...

rj