Choose your seat (complex)
 

30/60 game and youre about to sit down.

seat 1 is the worst player at the table. not too fishy but hes sorta dumb. misses bets, is predictable etc.

seat 2 is a highly aggressive player but he is a little too loose and is a poor handreader often making bad call downs.

seat 3 plays well preflop but is passive postflop

seat 4 is 46/12/1 over 39 hands.

seat 5 is a winning player but hes tight passive. he makes some stupid chases sometimes though with flop peels and never bluffs. he likes to call down alot.


if you could sit anywhere between these players where would it be?

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

Initially you would think to sit behind the worst player, but that seat isn't too good because you have a hard to play against player on your left. Furthermore, you don't make that much money blind stealing because both him and one further left defend too much (for you).

It would be nice to seat between 4 and 5, as you get to isolate a very loose player, and you get to steal 5's blinds. A bonus is that when you steal on the button, you will get to play seat 1 a ton, and make lots of money off of him. You are also opposite the agro guy, so are at a safe distance.

I like between 4-5.

I can't even find another seat that compares.

Edit: I guess my initial seat of between 1-2 is decent, but you really have to know how to use the agro guy to your left, which can be hard.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

I read Spicymoose's response but I disagree and am going to sit between 1 and 2. Having a very aggro guy on my left isn't ideal, but if he's very aggro and a bad hand-reader to boot, it is pretty easy to adjust to him -- there are going to be lots of opportunities to have him bet our hand for us and trap other players who see the flop (like the passive post-flop guy to his left and the worst player to our right), and lots of opps to C/R him and let him make his bad calldowns. I want to act after the worst player at the table barring counter-arguments, and I think tight-passive in seat 5 is a reasonable button on our BB (though he's a winning player), so I don't think the seat 2 guy is enough of a counterargument to forego sitting on his right. Seat 4 is just about totally unknown and I haven't a clue how he plays postflop, so I can't really evaluate - call him unknown and take the best seat I can find, which I think is between 1 and 2.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

If seat 4 was after 1000 hands, would you then choose between 4-5? I am currently unsure of how many hands I need to know a player is too loose, and have posted in the Probability forum for someone to help me. I know people always throw out numbers like 50, or 100, or whatever, but at any number of hands, we can have some sort of confidence interval. I think that even though this is only 39 hands, we still know his VPIP is probably too high a good portion of the time.

I agree that seat 1-2 is good if you can know how to use it. My main problem is that a lot of our money comes from blind stealing on the button, and in this situation we will be up against relatively good blind defenders. They do have many post flop mistakes, but the agro guy is helped automatically by being in a blind stealing situation. Seat 4-5 rocks because when we have SB, we are stealing against a tighty, and when we are in the button, we are stealing against a tighty and a horrible BB.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

at first I thought it was between 1 and 2, then I read the posts and thought maybe it was between 4 and 5, then, I thought some more and decided it was between 3 and 4 because you'll be able to steal so many blinds.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
at first I thought it was between 1 and 2, then I read the posts and thought maybe it was between 4 and 5, then, I thought some more and decided it was between 3 and 4 because you'll be able to steal so many blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get your response. You choose 3-4 primarily (at least all that you said) because of steals. 4-5 is way better than 3-4 for steals. In 3-4 you have a what seams to be pretty loose guy (but a bit unknown) in the BB when you are SB. Yeah, you have it decent when you are button, and have a tight BB, but he knows how to play, so when he does, you won't be making all that much money. But in 4-5 you get a good SB vs BB steal and although you won't automatically steal when you are in the button, post flop you will be playing against a guy making tons of mistakes.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

without reading other responses i say between 4 and 5

Edited: yeah i gotta say that between 4 and 5 is looking more and more like clearly the best seat. You are in a good position with regard to both stealing blinds and blind steal defense. I think this seat also minimizes your difficult decisions postflop as well.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

5 on your immediate left, obviously.

And this is not close to complex.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
If seat 4 was after 1000 hands, would you then choose between 4-5?

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt it. He'd be too loose pre- but that's not enough for me to overcome "worst player at the table." He could be very decent post-flop, his "too looseness" could be inflated by the fact that he never folds blinds in steal situations, etc. And note that while seat 5 is labeled tight-passive, he's also labeled a winner in the game, which means he's better than most you'll come across. I see no great reason to want have him on my immediate left.

[ QUOTE ]
My main problem is that a lot of our money comes from blind stealing on the button, and in this situation we will be up against relatively good blind defenders.

[/ QUOTE ]

They could be good or bad. We know aggro is a bad hand reader and over-aggro. We know the other guy is passive post-flop. We don't have a good sense of if they apply pressure correctly or react to it correctly (although both have a bit of the call-down in them). These two acting in tandem should mean that we'll be able to play pretty well post-flop when its us against the blinds.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
5 on your immediate left, obviously.

And this is not close to complex.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see you put tons of thought into this. Great job.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

you really dont like having a very aggressive player on your left

i think the seat value runs proportional to the amount of hands you are able to play. at this table, you can play the most hands with the 2 biggest donks on your right, between the 2 and 3. the guys on your right is where your money comes from.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5 on your immediate left, obviously.

And this is not close to complex.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see you put tons of thought into this. Great job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are being sarcastic, but I have put a lot of thought into my position at any given table. Since I have already put said thought into position, such a basic setup such as the one described by OP takes little time to answer.

-Scott

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
5 on your immediate left, obviously.

And this is not close to complex.

[/ QUOTE ]


GREAT! GLAD TO HAVE YA ABOARD! HOPE TO SEE MORE GREAT INSIGHT LIKE THIS SOON!!!!

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
And note that while seat 5 is labeled tight-passive, he's also labeled a winner in the game, which means he's better than most you'll come across. I see no great reason to want have him on my immediate left.

[/ QUOTE ]

How about "He never bluffs"? We also get free cards OOP more than often which is awesome.

[ QUOTE ]
We know aggro is a bad hand reader and over-aggro. We know the other guy is passive post-flop. We don't have a good sense of if they apply pressure correctly or react to it correctly (although both have a bit of the call-down in them). These two acting in tandem should mean that we'll be able to play pretty well post-flop when its us against the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we will probably make good money playing against the blinds from 1-2, I just think we will make more from seat 4-5. We get to play against the worst player very often when we have the button, that is great. Our blind steals from the SB are good because he is too tight, and won't be defending enough. When he does defend, it will kinda suck, because he is a good player, but even if he is good, passivity is not a good trait to have in blind steal situations.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5 on your immediate left, obviously.

And this is not close to complex.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see you put tons of thought into this. Great job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are being sarcastic, but I have put a lot of thought into my position at any given table. Since I have already put said thought into position, such a basic setup such as the one described by OP takes little time to answer.

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm happy that you are so good at this. If you notice though, you have 3 decent players all vouching for different things. This might say something about the complexity of it. Maybe you could flesh out your thoughts on the matter. If not, there is no reason to even respond.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

Posting blind....

Between 4 and 5.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
you really dont like having a very aggressive player on your left

i think the seat value runs proportional to the amount of hands you are able to play. at this table, you can play the most hands with the 2 biggest donks on your right, between the 2 and 3. the guys on your right is where your money comes from.

[/ QUOTE ]

If they are aggressive and bad, I don't mind having them on my left, especially if there is a pssive guy or two after him. It's not ideal, but I'm not convinced that sitting after an unknown in seat 4 (the guy has a stat-read only over a measly 39 hands) with a winning player on my left is great. If seat 5 were "a slightly winning player but much too tight" then I can see wanting to be able to push him out pre- with successful iso raises -- but I am assuming that if he's a winner then he's going to recognize obvious isolations and adjust accordingly (maybe that is going too far with my assumptions).

I don't understand your point though - you want to sit after the aggro -- I think if we want to play the most hands we're going to be three-betting pretty light pre-flop, and the post-flop dynamics don't seem as potentially profitable when we see a flop with at least one other player.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
you really dont like having a very aggressive player on your left

i think the seat value runs proportional to the amount of hands you are able to play. at this table, you can play the most hands with the 2 biggest donks on your right, between the 2 and 3. the guys on your right is where your money comes from.

[/ QUOTE ]

Having the agressive player immediately to our right means he will be raising a lot preflop, and we won't be able to play as many hands as usual. Sure, we will be able to adjust, and loosen up a bit, but we still won't be able to play as many hands as usual. I agree it is a good seat once we see the flop, but we won't be able to play as many hands as from other postions. Furthermore, you have a good preflop player on your immediate right, which takes away from your blind money, and what looks like a loose player two to the right. This is bad because not only is he probably defending his BB closer to optimal than most, but we don't know enough about his play yet to fully take advantage of him.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5 on your immediate left, obviously.

And this is not close to complex.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see you put tons of thought into this. Great job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are being sarcastic, but I have put a lot of thought into my position at any given table. Since I have already put said thought into position, such a basic setup such as the one described by OP takes little time to answer.

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm happy that you are so good at this. If you notice though, you have 3 decent players all vouching for different things. This might say something about the complexity of it. Maybe you could flesh out your thoughts on the matter. If not, there is no reason to even respond.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I feel this says something about your definition of decent.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5 on your immediate left, obviously.

And this is not close to complex.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see you put tons of thought into this. Great job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are being sarcastic, but I have put a lot of thought into my position at any given table. Since I have already put said thought into position, such a basic setup such as the one described by OP takes little time to answer.

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm happy that you are so good at this. If you notice though, you have 3 decent players all vouching for different things. This might say something about the complexity of it. Maybe you could flesh out your thoughts on the matter. If not, there is no reason to even respond.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I feel this says something about your definition of decent.

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. I may suck, but Josh is definetly a good player, and from what I read of Catt's responses he (she?) puts a lot of thought into the game. I at least try to be good, and think about the situation, even if I am not that good.

Edit: And even if you remove me from the equation, there is still you, who are disagreeing with the other two.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, I feel this says something about your definition of decent.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is basically a general discussion on seat selection based on no more than a few brief descriptions on player types, one only statisical over a miniscule sample, and others pretty vague phrases that we impregnate with our own expansive views on what those brief phrases might mean overall.

It can be a totally worthless thread or a potentially interesting thread where posters raise and discuss the pros and cons of various aspects of the "impregnated reads" (for lack of a better phrase), and posters and lurkers alike can perhaps think about aspects of seat selection that they haven't really thought of much or have given short shrift to before. You seem to be doing your damndest to make it worthless. Bravo.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

i gave this some thought and i think everyone is right. i want the 5 seat behind me. one thing i forgot to mention is that the 5 seat doesnt like to 3bet me preflop all that often. he calls alot but doesnt defend his SB much at all. i can open from the button and itll be me vs the worst player almost every time. the loose passive on my right wont take away from most of my button raises. i can also open from the CO against the guy who makes poor calldowns and the BT behind me wont 3bet me often at all.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
5 on your immediate left, obviously.

And this is not close to complex.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see you put tons of thought into this. Great job.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you are being sarcastic, but I have put a lot of thought into my position at any given table. Since I have already put said thought into position, such a basic setup such as the one described by OP takes little time to answer.

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm happy that you are so good at this. If you notice though, you have 3 decent players all vouching for different things. This might say something about the complexity of it. Maybe you could flesh out your thoughts on the matter. If not, there is no reason to even respond.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I feel this says something about your definition of decent.

[/ QUOTE ]


right. i suck, and you are godly.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

You have to throw player 4 out, you don't have enough data. Frankly, that could be anyone one of us in such a game over 39 hands, seriously.

So, you want to be stealing the Tighty's blind and have the loose, aggro players on your right so, I'd take between 3 and 4. Seat 3 seems call station like and perdictable, don't worry about him, you can put call-station/predictable types anywhere.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

I think between 3-4 would be better if seat 4 was an unknown, rather than what we have on him.

I am still a bit caught up on these small hand sample stats. I know 39 hands is not very many at all, and it is true that anyone of us could have his stats after 39 hands, but that does not mean that they mean nothing.

The fact that he has played more than 18 of his last 39 hands in our first observations of him means he is probably a bit looser than he should be. Our read could be completely off, and he might end up being a regular, or even tight player, but I think it is better to add probabilities to his stats, rather than just call them null and void. I don't know how to properly assess this probability, but I am sure it is possible somehow.

Just from my random speculation, I would guess that there is a only a 15% chance that his VPIP is under 20, 40% chance his VPIP is between 20-35, 25% chance his VPIP is 35-45, and 15% chance his VPIP is 45-55, and 5% chance his VPIP is over 55. These are just guesses, but I think there is a decent chance he is a loose player, even after only 39 hands.

If you had a player pegged at 85 VPIP after only 20 hands, would you think that meant anything?

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

another thing is that the weaktighty in the 5 seat never folds his blinds to me. if im in the SB hell call a raise in the BB 90%+ of the time. he also defends liberally when i open from any position. hes just very passive and predictable postflop.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

I don't know how to interpret seat numbers. Is seat 2 to the right of seat 1?

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
another thing is that the weaktighty in the 5 seat never folds his blinds to me. if im in the SB hell call a raise in the BB 90%+ of the time. he also defends liberally when i open from any position. hes just very passive and predictable postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I like being on the button w/position when he is in the BB even more, don't you?

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
another thing is that the weaktighty in the 5 seat never folds his blinds to me. if im in the SB hell call a raise in the BB 90%+ of the time. he also defends liberally when i open from any position. hes just very passive and predictable postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then I like being on the button w/position when he is in the BB even more, don't you?

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer being on the button w/position when we have someone who defends their blinds less, and isn't as good a player. He may be weak/tight, but TStone said he is probably a winning player, and therefore less prone to make mistakes. Also, the fact that he defends liberally is not a good thing if I am the one doing the stealing.

Edit: I realize I am advocating a position where I will be stealing against him from the SB when he is BB, but we still have great stealing potential when we are on the button.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
the fact that he defends liberally is not a good thing if I am the one doing the stealing.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have to explain this further because I feel 100% opposite when I have position here.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the fact that he defends liberally is not a good thing if I am the one doing the stealing.


[/ QUOTE ]
You have to explain this further because I feel 100% opposite when I have position here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very few of your steals will show a profit >.75 BB/hand if you see the flop. If you steal the blinds, you win .75 BBs. Ergo, you want to steal the blinds unopposed as often as possible.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how to interpret seat numbers. Is seat 2 to the right of seat 1?

[/ QUOTE ]


i think seat 2 is to the left of seat 1. from an overhead view, seat 1 is to the right of the dealer and the numbers go clockwise around the table

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

At a glance I'd sit between 3 and 4 so that I could hammer the tight passive player's BB and take cheap showdowns against the schmucks to my right.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

nah joe. you want tight or bad players in the blinds when you steal. you dont want a passive player who defends liberally in the BB because defending liberally is correct against my steal range which is probably 43% ATTSB. dont tell me to tighten up either then because even the bottom range of those hands is profitable with position imo.

also, allowing the passive player who doesnt bluff to play out of the BB doesnt magnify his weakness. its a fairly good strategy to be checkcalling out of the BB against a steal raise and to not bluff much. its still unprofitable of course but id much rather have any of the other bad players in the BB.


hi jeff. seat 2 has position on seat 1, ie: seat 1 SB seat 2 BB.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

Which is it?

[ QUOTE ]
you dont want a passive player who defends liberally in the BB because defending liberally is correct against my steal range which is probably 43% ATTSB

[/ QUOTE ]

or

[ QUOTE ]
even the bottom range of those hands is profitable with position imo.


[/ QUOTE ]

????

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

The more he folds the larger the range of hands you can play profitably. For example, if you're in a 1/2 SB structure and you had an opponent who would fold the BB 51% of the time you could raise any two cards profitably. If he's calling 90% of the time suddenly J5s starts to look like a real loser.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

lol wtf joe. it seems that youre implying that its incorrect for me to raise because its correct for him to defend.

it is very often correct for me to raise and at the same time be correct for him to defend.

you do understand right?

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

[ QUOTE ]
lol wtf joe

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you have a civil discussion? Ever?

[ QUOTE ]
it seems that youre implying that its incorrect for me to raise because its correct for him to defend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not.

[ QUOTE ]
it is very often correct for me to raise and at the same time be correct for him to defend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know.

You tell me you don't want him in the BB when you are on the button and then tell me that your steal range is still profitable here:

[ QUOTE ]
you dont want a passive player who defends liberally in the BB because defending liberally is correct against my steal range which is probably 43% ATTSB. dont tell me to tighten up either then because even the bottom range of those hands is profitable with position imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why wouldn't you want to be in position with a profitable range of hands? You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

You have the button in what seems to be a perfect situation a loose blind defending, passive, predictable player. Never 3-bets, you have position, easy to get away from, you'll outplay him all day long.

Re: Choose your seat (complex)
 

I don't really want to get in the middle of whatever internet spat is going on here, but I do want to point out that most of the value in any blind steal attempt comes from the times that your opponents actually fold.