Working on my agression. Paying off?
 

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Omaha/8 (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP2 folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG all in for .5, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7
JUICY13 lost $3 (showed hand) [ 4s 5c Qs Kh ]

I had a good 2 way hand and raised on the flop to limit the field. I didn't like the turn very much, but called because I knew it would only be .5 more on the river and a low card could still give me the low. I figured that it was likely that I was still ahead for the high and even if I wasn't it was unlikely that I didn't have odds to continue.

I have no idea what JUICY13 was doing.

How would you have played this hand?

Re: Working on my agression. Paying off?
 

HEY....this is what we talked about yesterday...well done!

I still can't believe you didn't come across someone at the table with A 2 and split the pot.

All I can think is the raise pushed out someone with those middle cards on a straight draw or a flush draw.

Re: Working on my agression. Paying off?
 

Yeah, I'm finally getting it through my skull that on a flop like this, my choices are to raise or fold, but definitely not call. The guy in front of you betting gives you an excellent opportunity to raise to thin the field, which gives your hand a better chance of holding up one way or the other (although I'd still be fearing a heart flush).

Against poor opponents, I like it a lot, and have finally learned to do that myself.

Re: Working on my agression. Paying off?
 

This looks good.

I hate that turn too - but since you know he is short stacked and it's heads up you have to call.

However- since he has less than 1 bet left, just raise. It sounds silly, but he might actually fold, and you know your gonna put it in on the river anyways.

Re: Working on my agression. Paying off?
 

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How would you have played this hand?

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Just like you did -- nice hand. I do like Clevelands turn raise, for the reason he mentioned.

-g

Re: Working on my agression. Paying off?
 

Thanks guys. Both for the approval of my play and for the advice that lead to this play.

Re: Working on my agression. Paying off?
 

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How would you have played this hand?

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Just like you did -- nice hand. I do like Clevelands turn raise, for the reason he mentioned.

-g

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Tell me why you would not fold that after the flop. You are not going to bet out the A2s and you are not going to bet out high flush draws. You don't even have top 2 pair, and there are reasonable combinations of low cards that could turn a low into a scoop. I am all for the idea of aggression -- something I have been working on myself as well -- but this doesn't seem like the kind of hand to be aggressive, it looks like a fold. Curious about your thinking.

Re: Working on my agression. Paying off?
 

Folding's certainly an option, and still a better one than calling.

It all depends on who saw the flop. If it included some guy who's been folding nearly everything but the big blind, but who suddenly decides to play along - yeah, if he calls your raise, you've probably lost to an A2.

On the other hand, if it's the same six turnips who've called the last dozen flops with any old garbage, then it's entirely possible (and in practice, quite probable) that you can push them off their hands if left facing two bets to call on a flop that doesn't give them the nuts.

Basically, if I raise this, there are a couple of outcomes:

1) Everyone folds but the original better. I might bet/raise him on the turn just to continue the aggression, although if I've gotten him heads-up, I might also just check-call and go for the crap shoot.

2) A bunch of people call. Now, they either have trash and have increased your pot odds, or they have good drawing hands. It seems like a lot of the best drawing hands don't include pairs - they're drawing to a nut low, a straight or a flush. So, if they don't make their draw, you're still ahead with a lousy two pair.

In any case, if you get multiple callers, the action on the turn will make all the difference in the world, which is why you'd want to be in late position for this play.

Re: Working on my agression. Paying off?
 

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You are not going to bet out the A2s and you are not going to bet out high flush draws

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If I was one of the opponents behind me I would fold an empty nut low draw and probably anything but the nut flush draw (any maybe even that). You need about 6:1 to draw to the low and the pot isn’t laying that and you need about 5:1 to draw to the flush which the pot is barely giving you. Furthermore you don’t know if the original better is going to 3 bet which would destroy your odds.

That being said I am not sure if any of my opponents would lay those hands down but that is OK with me. I figured that the raise could get he heads up or at the very least steal me the button. If I can steal the button I still will have a good 2 way hand and position so I can probably get a free turn if an ugly card comes or I will be able to continue to hammer the pot if a good card comes.

My raise is either going to be called by bad players or good players with a monster. If a good player calls me I have no problem shutting down unless I boat up or a 2 comes and I am going to have position to outplay the bad players.

Re: Working on my agression. Paying off?
 

Yeah.

What he said.

Re: Working on my agression. Paying off?
 

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Curious about your thinking.

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Interesting question -- I would not have even considered folding here. I guess it’s because I see this as a classic promo-raise situation. I am looking to narrow the field so my reasonable but weak 2 pair might hold up for high or my 2nd nut low might win for low. An extremely important element of this is the fact that I can present the rest of the table with a double bet which now only offers 4:1 odds on a call. I’m not sure if I’d bet or check if its checked to me.


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You are not going to bet out the A2s and you are not going to bet out high flush draws.

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That’s good news, not bad news. Let’s say you’re up against the nutflush draw with weak low (AK49), and a nutlow draw with a weak high of middle pair (A25T) – then you are a favorite.

pokenum -o8 js 3h as 5s - ac 2d 5d ts - ah kh 4h 9s -- jh 5h 7d
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing 7d Jh 5h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Js 5s 3h 142 361 304 1 96 317 0 0.411
Ts Ac 5d 2d 55 58 607 1 371 42 0 0.339
9s Ah Kh 4h 88 246 420 0 9 404 0 0.251


On the other hand, I wouldn’t mind if they folded either, since they have reasonable odds to call. (Keep in mind here that while the A49K hand looks like its 25% equity is getting 3:1 odds to call, that is 25% equity from here to the river, and I’ll be betting most turn cards, so its’ probably worse)


Even if one opponent has the nutflush draw WITH an A2 low and bet into me, I would easily have odds to call, and certainly not be in bad shape.

pokenum -o8 js 3h as 5s - ah kh 9s 2s -- jh 5h 7d
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 7d Jh 5h
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
As Js 5s 3h 209 512 308 0 108 378 9 0.475
9s 2s Ah Kh 251 308 512 0 450 36 9 0.525



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You don't even have top 2 pair, and there are reasonable combinations of low cards that could turn a low into a scoop.

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All the more reason to bet – I don’t want them around to have the chance to beat my two pair or catch their reasonable combinations of low.


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this doesn't seem like the kind of hand to be aggressive, it looks like a fold.

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Why? Consider that

1) you may have the best low draw. An A2 will be out at your table ~50% of the time. Now consider that no one has shown any strength – button/SB/BB didn’t raise preflop which they very well might have with strong A2’s, and SB/BB checked on the flop. You are more likely than not to have the best low draw right now.

2) You may get even or better low draws to fold. Bare A3 should certainly fold here, and some A2 low draw will have to fold (I’ll bet you would recommend A2xx with nothing else fold to a double bet here, for example)

3) You very likely have odds to stay even if raised. Even if you are behind to a strong hand, unless you are up against something like A2JJ, you have odds even if you put in 3 bets.

4) You have up to 8 outs to improve to either top boat or nut low.

5) By raising now you find out on the cheap street if someone does have a strong hand. It narrows their holdings considerably more if they can call 2 bets here instead of having to call just 1.

--Greg