Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

Pokerstars 2/4 (6 handed)

I am UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and $400. I raise to $15, Villain (no reads, also has $400) calls, everyone else folds.

Flop ($35): J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet $30, villain calls.

Turn ($90): 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet $50, villain calls.

River ($185): 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I...?


A few questions:

-given my line, what's my play here?
-what line do you guys take on the turn? Sometimes I will c/r all-in here, but I've been finding lately that people at this level (or, rather, esp. at the 1/2) don't lay down very often to that action, so I've been doing big turn c/r with my big hands more and my semi-bluffs yet. any thoughts on different lines here?

thanks

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

Don't like turn bet size. As played, I'd bet $100 on river.

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

Bets $100.

Dumle

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

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Don't like turn bet size

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How much would you bet instead? I think, at the time, I used the 1/2 pot or so bet as a blocker. I didn't want to c/r allin, but I thought it might a) get me card cheaper than what he might bet if I checked, and b) might fold out hands beating me (something like 77 that called on the flop hoping to pick off a c-bet).

thoughts?

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

Check. Why bet? you think a J calls? If he raises you, ur [censored], so check call or check fold. Most J's check behind, but QT may bet and a worse flsuh may bet.

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

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Check. Why bet? you think a J calls? If he raises you, ur [censored], so check call or check fold. Most J's check behind, but QT may bet and a worse flsuh may bet.


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I guess thats the issue--QT may or may not bluff here. a jack doesn't bet here I don't think, but i'm thinking there are plenty of players at this level who will call with a jack. a worse flush may bet, but i would think a worse flush would be more likely to call than bet on this board.

why am i [censored] if i get raised? I still have $200 behind, it seems like an easy fold... do you think that I get bluff-raised here often?

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

I'd say bet. QT isn't likely to bet since there's too many possible hands that will call a river bet. Smaller flush may bet but it probably won't be that much. And he will call it anyway.

How can a J not call if he's been doing it the whole way?
A raise would either be J9 or some badly played 9 or set. I'd have to fold to a raise but I think there's too much value lost by checking in this scenario.

So Bet/Fold is my line. If I knew villian is more than capable of firing a QT or a jack at the river (but wouldn't call a bet) then I would check/call. But there's more of the former than the latter.

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

Why bet?

Because villain will fold lots of hands that beat yours. There is a good chance he called the flop with a small pair or the like, to snap off Hero's c-bet.

Dumle

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

QT probably doesn't bluff.

Most weak players(and it appears this guy is) will check behind with Jack, or a flush. You are missing way too much value not bettign that river. No one at this level is going to bluff raise you out with a worse hand.

The turn bet is just a pot bloater that gives you no info, no fold equity, and leaves you oop in a spot where you no idea what is going on on most rivers. Bets like this will get torn apart vs good players.

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

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Because villain will fold lots of hands that beat yours.

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No.

Full houses call, here.

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

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QT probably doesn't bluff.

Most weak players(and it appears this guy is) will check behind with Jack, or a flush. You are missing way too much value not bettign that river. No one at this level is going to bluff raise you out with a worse hand.

The turn bet is just a pot bloater that gives you no info, no fold equity, and leaves you oop in a spot where you no idea what is going on on most rivers. Bets like this will get torn apart vs good players.

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Turn bet seems seriously alright to me. I'm not trying to ram and jam like crazy with a flush here, and I ain't gonna check.

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

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Bets like this will get torn apart vs good players.

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I use bets like this semi-frequently. I use them in the following situations:

a) With a draw vs. weak villian who will let me see the river for cheap, but who will bet more than I would if I check.
b) With a big hand that I'm not worried about being drawn out on vs. a weak player who I'm pretty sure is drawing.
c) With a big hand vs. a strong player to induce a bluff.
d) With a draw/bluff vs. a strong player after I've busted him with c.

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

Oh yeah, as for the actual hand:
Bet $100-$120 or so, fold to a raise.

I like it particularly in this spot, because he's very likely drawing.

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

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Bets like this will get torn apart vs good players.

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I use bets like this semi-frequently. I use them in the following situations:

a) With a draw vs. weak villian who will let me see the river for cheap, but who will bet more than I would if I check.
b) With a big hand that I'm not worried about being drawn out on vs. a weak player who I'm pretty sure is drawing.
c) With a big hand vs. a strong player to induce a bluff.
d) With a draw vs. a strong player after I've busted him with c.

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a) Ok, I might bet a little less though if he is that weak.
b) I bet about 3/4 pot in these spots, since they call anyways.
c) Ok.
d) Not sure If I understand, please explain more.

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

hehe, for some reason I thought he was talking about the turn.

Dumle

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

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d) Not sure If I understand, please explain more.

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If I used the old "small bet to induce a bluff" line on a strong player in the past, and it worked, I am much more likely to make this same move with a semi-bluff in the future.

Since the most common hands for me to make this with (when I'm trying to induce a bluff) are nut-flush, full-house, set on drawless board, the line shows a ton of strength, and may make him lay down a lot of hands. If he just calls, well, he let me try to hit my draw for cheap.

Whether I do the weak-lead/fold, weak-lead/3-bet or weak-lead/call c/r, bf, b/c b/rr, etc. depends on my hand, the player, my read, stack sizes, board texture, etc.

A recent thread.

Results
 

Thanks for the comments everyone

On the river, I bet $100 and villain called with QJo.
I liked the bet at the time, but I didn't want to be results-oriented, good to see that most of you like this bet here.

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

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Oh yeah, as for the actual hand:
Bet $100-$120 or so, fold to a raise.

I like it particularly in this spot, because he's very likely drawing.

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If he's likely to be drawing, then why are we bet/folding?

Re: Nut flush on double-paired board?
 

Because if he has a flush, he's not going to raise.