Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

I have a full time job in nyc where I clear a decent living. My spending patterns are poor and I should have alot more int he bank but that is another story. I was considering playing during my nights online with an occasional trip to AC or Fox. As previous posts spoke about the swings in limit vs. no limit, I do agree that the mentality in limit is knowing specifically when to foldem. A significant raise cannot push your opponent off a hand and I believe that if you can perform this part of the game well then you can have a great edge in no limit games. With that said, I am looking to invest a portion of my salary into playing part time. I know you recommend 20 buy-ins for nl. If you are not playing 8 hours a day though, rather say 3-4 max, what would you recommend for that.

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

Hmmm, I think you're thinking on limit vs. no-limit and when to fold is inside out. Patting yourself on the back for making laydowns in limit hold'em is a recipe for weak play. And thinking NL is about pushing people off hands with big bets is a recipe for going broke. This is all closely related to people complaining about being unable to "protect their hand" in limit hold'em; they don't understand what protecting their hand means.

As for your buy-in question, other can answer that better than I, no doubt. I'd say you should have about the same bankroll.

Regards,

T

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

You need the same bankroll, it is all one long session.

The bankroll requirements are so that you can "weather" the ups and downs that the variance of the game hands you, so you don't go broke before you achieve your +EV edge in the game results.
If you play part time, the up and down streaks will occur over longer stretches of time, and it will take longer to achieve your final results, or smooth out the hills and valleys. If you play full time, part time, continiously, or one hand a day, the same ups and downs, streaks and runs, are there -- it just occurs over different periods of time.

It also depends on how you define your bankroll. The 300 BB bankroll is for full time play with nothing but your play being added to it. You could start with a smaller bankroll for part time play, if you are willing to add to it from your other income, in case your initial bankroll gets low (what you are calling starting bankroll really isn't your bankroll in the strict sense of the word).

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, I think you're thinking on limit vs. no-limit and when to fold is inside out. Patting yourself on the back for making laydowns in limit hold'em is a recipe for weak play. And thinking NL is about pushing people off hands with big bets is a recipe for going broke. This is all closely related to people complaining about being unable to "protect their hand" in limit hold'em; they don't understand what protecting their hand means.

ABSOLUTELY,,well said

Jeff

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

Just start playing $100 max NL. You have a job so you can put $100 a week into your bankroll. Save all your proceeds until you have 2k. Once you hit 2k, no need to add $100 a week to your bankroll, you can just stick it in the bank.

If you go bust after your first session or two, no biggie - you'll have another paycheck soon.

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

I consider myself a "semi-professional." That is I have a job that brings me the majority of my money, but I still play seriously on the side, and that money makes up some significant portion of my yearly income, tho not the bulk of it.

To elaborate, I probably clear about $12,000-$15,000 a year playing cards, given my current rate of play and stakes (I don't bother keeping track anymore). Not enough to live on, but enough to make a pretty good difference in my spending money.

In the end tho, it's all the same, the only debate is on the rate at which you play. You've gotta have the bankroll, you've gotta be good enough to beat the game for a decent hourly rate, etc etc bla bla bla. Nothing really changes between pro and semi-pro, except the timeline. You play fewer hours, but the variance and bankroll requirements don't change.

The exception might be that if my bankroll drops too low, I can stop playing long enough to re-build it by working (i.e. I have a replenishable bankroll), where this isn't really a viable option for a full-time pro.

I tell you this, I did the full time poker thing for about three years, and it basically SUCKS. I did OK, good enough to prove IT CAN BE DONE, but that doesn't mean it SHOULD be done. "Part-time pro" is the way to go. Basically a part-time pro has decided to make a lifetime profit doing what they love as a sort of "side job." Not bad to have a fun hobby with a payback schedule.

One final point tho, if I'm not having fun, I'm outta there. Money ain't everything.

al

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

It should be noted that in my reply, I didn't specify diddly between limit or no limit, stud or hold'em, or whatever. That doesn't really matter. What matters is EV, bankroll, discipline, and everything else that goes with attempting to make a profit gambling at the game of poker. The specific details of each game are different, but the overall approach has to be the same no matter what you play. And things like "making big folds" aren't what really matters, those are just small details of a specific game type. If you have to debate that stuff in much detail, you're probably not even ready for the "semi-pro" level of play.

al

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

Some good stuff in this post. I don't disagree with any of it.

I'll elaborate slightly here on a couple things tho...

[ QUOTE ]
The 300 BB bankroll is for full time play with nothing but your play being added to it. You could start with a smaller bankroll for part time play, if you are willing to add to it from your other income, in case your initial bankroll gets low (what you are calling starting bankroll really isn't your bankroll in the strict sense of the word).


[/ QUOTE ]

If you're thinking of trying to play without a "replenishable bankroll," I'd consider 300 big bets (for limit play) to be TOO SMALL. You really need more of a cushion than this, because you may have overestimated your TRUE EDGE. There are many factors to consider that you may have failed to fully comprehend when you decided just how good you were in the first place.

I recommend 400 or 500 big bets for an aspiring "limit pro." Safety first.

For a no-limit player, it's more debatable. But if you think 20 buy-ins is the number, go with the safe number and at least add 50% to that, if not double it.

al

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

If you're able to drop in limits as your bankroll is depleted from swings, you dont need all that much.

If you're relying on poker as a source of income though, splitting your hourly rate in half usually sucks ass - so yeah, you definitely want more than 300BB's.

You also are going to want to manage your money outside of your bankroll.

That is to say, keep surpluses from your winnings in a separate account to pay for bills in periods when you hit the downswing, so that you wont have to remove it from your bankroll safety net.

You'll experience a lot less anxiety this way.


A good rule is to keep a few months worth of living expenses off to the side at any given time.

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

Al, you make some good points here. What games and levels do you normally play?

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

At the moment...

My limit hold'em play ranges from small limits up to 10-20, with a preference for 6-12 or 8-16. A couple times a year I might venture higher, but I have no real desire to play limit hold'em this high in vegas these days. I played 3-6 kill and 4-8 (full kill) games in a "semi-pro" capacity for years, thus I basically have the limit hold'em thing "down."

I'd still play lots of stud/stud-8 if the games existed anymore. But they don't.

Thus, mostly I play 1-2, 1-3 or 2-5 no limit hold'em. More EV, less overall variance, easier time beating the tourists in the long run.

Keep in mind tho when I played for a living, I played online, and played mostly 5-10 or 10-20 stud-8 (primary game), $100 or $200 no limit hold'em (NO higher), 5-10 through 15-30 limit hold'em (would not multi-table on 15-30), and 5-10 through 20-40 stud high (was very game selective here, average play was 10-20). I played a smattering of tournaments and other games as well, but usually stuck to cash games. Thus I was basically a "limit pro" when I played for the majority of my income, and I played mostly online (some of that was propping as well).

Most of the reason I played only online was purely due to geographical concerns, I didn't live anywhere near a live cardroom, a little bit was that propping is more of a reality online than live. Online play sucks tho in my book, but then so does playing cards for a living. I'm a "working man*" who plays cards on the side for money. I TOTALLY prefer live play as well.

One thing I can tell you for sure is that if you graduate from semi-pro to "pro" you're going to lose your love for the game if you keep at it for very long. I almost quit playing due to pure boredom, not because I was losing. Now I don't play as much and I love it once again. Poker is my true passion, but too much of anything is always going to eventually ruin the pleasure of it all.

al

*one funny thing is that I'm a highly white collar educated guy who much prefers blue collar work, thus I am really more of a "blue collar man." WTF I am doing playing poker and working in a cardroom is beyond me [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], I should be hammering, welding, using a screw-gun, starting an engine, or some such chit [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] Hey, I did "metal roofing in texas" for years, bee-otch!

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

What was your hourly rate at the peak of your run at playing professionally?

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

Limit --- No -Limit -- does not matter
make damn sure you set limit in your play such as---
1. Play for XX amount of hours or down XX amount of $$ -- THEN STOP once the first condition has been meet...
2. Do not play more then XX amount of times per week--Do not play just because your bored
3. When you hit the day or week condition you are done for that time period..
4. If you play on line --- GET OUT OF THE HOUSE/APT. now and then. Do not become a hermit --KEEP A LIFE GOING---
5. STUDY -- study your hands, study the game study the players.
6. SET GOALS YOU CAN REACH AND KEEP
Good luck

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

Al,

You've made some great posts in this thread. Sorry that playing pro didn't work out for you, I know some people love it. Different strokes for different folks I guess, but it's good to see that your love for the game has been reestablished.

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

[ QUOTE ]

I tell you this, I did the full time poker thing for about three years, and it basically SUCKS. I did OK, good enough to prove IT CAN BE DONE, but that doesn't mean it SHOULD be done. "Part-time pro" is the way to go. Basically a part-time pro has decided to make a lifetime profit doing what they love as a sort of "side job." Not bad to have a fun hobby with a payback schedule.



[/ QUOTE ]

This should be posted in response to every "should I go pro" thread.

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

To be totally honest, I didn't keep especially good records. Ironically, when I used to play semi-pro at 3-6 and 4-8 full kill games in california (when I had a real job) I kept excellent records. My hourly at 3-6 kill was about $7.12 an hour, and at 4-8 was about $9.35 an hour. I seriously doubt that my professional run yeilded much better as far as big bets per hour (other than the difference the enhanced number of hands played online might yield).

al

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

Al, I can't tell you how much I enjoyed reading your posts in this thread. I don't know if I'm currently A. a pro, B.semi-pro or C. slapdick playing 40 hour week, whatever it is I am new at this amount of play. ( Well, whatever the answer I know choice C is part of it).

Your education plus affinity for blue collar work plus your views on poker strike a deep chord within myself.

True facts for laughs:

I now have my wife asking me If i'm going to work today instead of going to the casino.

All 3 of my kids are calling me Knish ( I grind at 5-10 or 10-20 limit).

And already I tell my family how HARD this is and they make fun of me. Since I am new at this, the swings and getting upset at myself for stupid mistakes are a work in progress.

I don't get mad at anyone else and never,never act badly at the table. My main challenge right now besides getting more experience is attetnion span / ablility to focus for extended periods of time. In other words, I always play better, winning or losing , the first 3 or 4 hours. Casino is hour away so like to play 9 or 10 when I get there.

I'm sure your innate ablility for patience / self-discipline is better than mine, but did you feel when you played seriously all that time that it got better with experience? I sometimes feel like i am MUCH better at it and then other nights I feel like I took a giant step backwards. Any mantra or anything you use / used at tables to help you, or was it natural for you?

Ps. I'm not trying to look like superpro poker player here. I am 52 and just retired recently. Got pension but too young, hyperactive, poor( well, not poor, but obviously less "retirement at 30 yrs then if continued in same job) to " be retired " . Will probably eventually do something else but right now this is my supplemental income. Been AT IT for about 6 weeks real serious like( cause I took 3 weeks off to do stuff for my kids and spend week with my wife). anyway, any advice from someone who was there much earlier and longer than myself will be welcome. thanks, Jim

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

[ QUOTE ]
I always play better, winning or losing , the first 3 or 4 hours. Casino is hour away so like to play 9 or 10 when I get there.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like you need to play four hours, then take a one hour eat break, then play some more. Reflect on your play during that time, read a book, or just walk around / do something to relax. The bad plays you make in the last half of your casino day could easily eat up your profits from the first half.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure your innate ablility for patience / self-discipline is better than mine

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, not really. Actually I can get kinda tilty if I take a couple harsh beats, but the main area that I have very good discipline in is to realize that I'm tilting and LEAVE. Of course this is easy when you have a bzillion casinos all around you, I can always just play later.

[ QUOTE ]
Any mantra or anything you use / used at tables to help you, or was it natural for you?


[/ QUOTE ]

It's absolutely NOT natural for me. MOST things that go along with playing good poker DON'T come naturally to most people. I do possess a great deal of patience (probably from my many years as a fisherman), but in other areas I have really had to work hard over the years.

My best advice for you, since you're saying you're grinding 5-10 and 10-20 limit is this...

Keep a 500 big bet bankroll at the 10-20 level, that's $10,000, in a totally separate account. 300 is the old "theoretical" number of big bets, but I suggest you go higher. Since you're semi-retired you should have ten grand to work with. Even if it's not all in a separate account, treat it as if it was, keep a spreadsheet of your results.

Plot your results as follows...

Casino, game, limit, time of day (day, swing, grave), hours played, amount +/-

You don't need much more info than that. SKIP most, if not all other statistics. You just really want your hourly rate and overall win for the year. These will be very screwy at first, you need to log a lot of hours before you get a good feel for what's really happening.

Keep hours played and amount up or down in the last two columns, makes it easier. Each session at a game is kept track of separately. If you play 15 minutes of 5-10, then switch to 10-20, write down 15 minutes and amount up/down. It's not necessary to go smaller time increments than 15 minutes.

If you care to calculate your standard deviation, there is an essay on this site, or in Gambling theory and other topics as to how to do so. It might be a good idea for you to do this. Expect about 10 bb/hour as your result, give or take a little.

If you're totally illiterate when it comes to spreadsheets, try statking.

Really all I ever kept track of was these stats.

Once you're approaching 1,000 hours you should be getting a feel for how you're doing. If you get to 4,000 then you should REALLY know whether you're a "pro" or not.

Keep in mind you'll improve over time. You can track things in six month increments on the side, or whatever, but make sure you have a significant number of hours before you jump to any conclusions.

al

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

Thanks Al. I appreciate you taking the time to answer and the advice. Hope this 31st comes with you having had a good year. Jim

Re: Playing semiprofessionally....rather part time
 

[ QUOTE ]
I did the full time poker thing for about three years, and it basically SUCKS. I did OK, good enough to prove IT CAN BE DONE, but that doesn't mean it SHOULD be done. "Part-time pro" is the way to go. Basically a part-time pro has decided to make a lifetime profit doing what they love as a sort of "side job." Not bad to have a fun hobby with a payback schedule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very Ni Han Sa.

We have some common ground.

-ZEN