Super System II
 

How can it possibly give better advice than HPFAP?

Re: Super System II
 

It's pretty easy for me to imagine a better hold'em book than HP4AP. Take SSH/IT, for example. Something along the lines of MLHE that wasn't so damned weak-tight would be great. HP4AP is a fine book and all, but there are areas where I think it could be improved (grammar for one). I think it's the weakest book in the Advanced Players series.

Also, S/S II is going to cover a lot of games, not just limit hold'em. I'm an anomaly, but most of the money I've won over the years has come from games other than limit hold'em. Ray has said that the real money is to be made at other games, and while I haven't made what Ray would consider real money, I tend to agree with him.

Re: Super System II
 

Well, I've always found the advice in HPFAP lacking for Triple Lowball Draw.

Re: Super System II
 

Andy, I like 7CSFAP much more than HEPFAP. So, I second your thoughts.

Re: Super System II
 

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I'm an anomaly, but most of the money I've won over the years has come from games other than limit hold'em. Ray has said that the real money is to be made at other games, and while I haven't made what Ray would consider real money, I tend to agree with him.

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While fairly new to these other games, I agree, and many others have said the same thing, including Sklansky. Holdem popularity is a vicious circle. Because so many people play the game, it gets most of the attention, therefore most of the articles and books are written about holdem, and therefore most players read about and play holdem. Holdem also gets virtually all the TV time because of this, and because games like O8 and Stud8 are superficially complicated, and they are boring to play, let alone watch. But they are more profitable and have less variance than holdem.

And as Cappelletti and others point out, expert players have a very small edge over good players in games like O8, but good players have a big edge over poor players. I'm just starting to play Stud8, but I think that statement applies here also. And I'm definitely looking forward to any new material on these games.

Re: Super System II
 

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How can it possibly give better advice than HPFAP?

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Can anyone tell me what these all stand for? I know some of the, but not all of them.

Re: Super System II
 

holdem poker for advanced players.. pretty much the leading book on mid/high limit poker

Re: Super System II
 

7CSFAP= 7 card stud for adv players .. if you hadnt figured it out..

Re: Super System II
 

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holdem poker for advanced players.. pretty much the leading book on mid/high limit poker

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Thanks. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Super System II
 

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I'm an anomaly, but most of the money I've won over the years has come from games other than limit hold'em.

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You're not the only anomaly. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Ray has said that the real money is to be made at other games, and while I haven't made what Ray would consider real money, I tend to agree with him.

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As usual Ray is on the money. I think in a thread a while back started by Fossilman, there were a few respective poker authorities who delved into the game of Chinese Poker. Currently there is only one book on the subject, but that piece of literature is enough for a solid Chinese poker player to run over most games because a skilled player ultimately dominates a less skilled player.

The same can also be said for a game like Showhand. It's actually NL 5 card stud. What I like about this game is the ability to make bold heavy bets. Again there is more skill involved.

It's not hard to conceive that limit hold'em is by far the popular choice because it's much easier to learn and the mark of luck involved attracts far more recreational players without having them go bust.

Re: Super System II
 

"Also, S/S II is going to cover a lot of games, not just limit hold'em. I'm an anomaly, but most of the money I've won over the years has come from games other than limit hold'em. Ray has said that the real money is to be made at other games, and while I haven't made what Ray would consider real money, I tend to agree with him."

Um, could someone elaborate on this? I've never heard of this before, how much more can you make in other games? Why? Have there been other threads or articles about this I can read? Thanks.

Re: Super System II
 

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Um, could someone elaborate on this? I've never heard of this before, how much more can you make in other games? Why? Have there been other threads or articles about this I can read? Thanks.

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There have been several threads on this recently in the Other Poker forum and in the Stud forum. Also see:

Mike Cappelletti:

http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_maga...hives/?a_id=86


Steve Badger
http://www.playwinningpoker.com/omaha/ :

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Why play Omaha?... This website is called Play Winning Poker. While some newbies reading this Introduction will be hard pressed to do it right away, the aim is to win at Omaha -- not have fun, or even to irritate yourself. Frankly, at lower limits, winning at Omaha is easy, if you really are trying to win because most Omaha players play terribly, much worse than they play Holdem (which is not so good to start with).


In many ways, Omaha is mathematically simplistic. If you play only good starting hands and your opponents see fit to play almost every hand, and don't care whether they play for one bet or for four, soon the math of that will work in your favor. Omaha is the best game to make money, especially when you have a small bankroll. $3/6 Omaha requires only about half the bankroll of $3/6 Holdem, but your hourly win rate should be higher.

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Re: Super System II
 

take a dude like snakehead for example, who's great in all games, but his normal game are the stud games at the commerce, not hold'em.

Re: Super System II
 

I agree with your assessment of HFAP. In fact, I probably got more out of 'Hold 'em Poker' than I did HFAP. The problem, as I see it, is that it's speaking to a bygone era of mid limit hold 'em-- a time when the games were played by people who still held some semblance of sanity, and could actually identify a poor starting hand when one was dealt to them.

I remember in particular the advice about check raising the river with an underpair if there was an ace on board and your opponent had been calling all the way. The idea here was that your opponent might lay down a pair of aces with a bad kicker.

Honest to God, I don't think anyone has laid down top pair in a heads-up pot on the river in any game I've played in the past five years. Along the same lines, the 'checking the turn when you have outs, but betting when you don't' has got to be the weirdest advice that 2P2 has ever dispensed. I just can't imagine the scenerio where I'd check behind with two pair on the turn with a flush on board. I know they tried to shore some of this up with the 21st century edition, but it needs more work than that.

Re: Super System II
 

The brand of Chinese poker we used to play was 5 card stud with all the 2's through 8's removed. Is this the same game your talking about? Because if it is, I'll be the first to agree that this has got to be the most profitable game I've ever played.

Also- and I'm just shooting in the dark here-- have you or anyone else here ever played a game called 'big deuce'?

Re: Super System II
 

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Ray has said that the real money is to be made at other games

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Do you think this is still true with the plethora of limit holdem games with very easy competition available today?

Re: Super System II
 

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Also- and I'm just shooting in the dark here-- have you or anyone else here ever played a game called 'big deuce'?

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Thats what I have always known as chinese poker or Pusoy. I've never heard of the game youre talking about.

Re: Super System II
 

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The brand of Chinese poker we used to play was 5 card stud with all the 2's through 8's removed. Is this the same game your talking about? Because if it is, I'll be the first to agree that this has got to be the most profitable game I've ever played.


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Never played this variation before.

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Also- and I'm just shooting in the dark here-- have you or anyone else here ever played a game called 'big deuce'?

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You mean "cho-da-dee" as we say it in Cantonese or Big 2. Yes, that is poker game as well and also a skill game, but I have yet to find any good books on it. I don't like it as much because it's slow.

Re: Super System II
 

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Thats what I have always known as chinese poker or Pusoy. I've never heard of the game youre talking about.

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The Chinese Poker I am referring to is as follows:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...amp;PHPSESSID=

It's a 13 card variation of poker.

Re: Super System II
 

Hi Bruiser,

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Um, could someone elaborate on this? I've never heard of this before, how much more can you make in other games? Why? Have there been other threads or articles about this I can read? Thanks.

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I don't know about Europe, but in North America Hold'em, Stud, and Lowball have the norm for most poker games. So there won't be much literature to cover other forms of poker like those mentioned above due to little interest. In Asia however, particuarly the SE countries (HK, China, Taiwan, Singapore to name a few) the poker games played are Chinese Poker, Big 2 and 5 card stud NL.

I don't know why Hold'em hasn't hit the mainstream gambling market in Macau yet. My guess is that the action just isn't exciting enough, yet many Asians love Baccarat. Go figure.

Like any poker game, game selection is key. So obviously you want to select a table you can beat. Fortunately these "variations" have some very bad players or players who absolutely love to gamble it up.

Don Smolen has a wonderful Chinese poker book out and a software simulator to learn how to play.

Re: Super System II
 

We'll speaking in absolute terms, Hold'em has far more players and thus more games to select and more bad players overall. In 5 card stud, if you try chasing without proper odds or if you don't have a good understanding of the game, you will get run over. Luck, while still a factor is far less available than it would be in Hold'em. Thus you wouldn't have as large of a player base because the fish would get cleaned faster.

Re: Super System II
 

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I agree with your assessment of HFAP. In fact, I probably got more out of 'Hold 'em Poker' than I did HFAP. The problem, as I see it, is that it's speaking to a bygone era of mid limit hold 'em-- a time when the games were played by people who still held some semblance of sanity, and could actually identify a poor starting hand when one was dealt to them.

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2+2 clarified (or admitted) this when they published SSHE. They said that the strategy in SSHE was appropriate for games where most players played too many hands and stayed too long after the flop, and that HPFAP strategy was appropriate for games where most players played correctly, i.e., tight and aggressive games. So until I find a game where most players play correctly, my copy of HPFAP is on the shelf.

Re: Super System II
 

If you think stud/8 is boring, you're probably not playing high enough. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Super System II
 

Somewhat more than half of my lifetime winnings come from stud/8. Your mileage may vary, but I am much better at stud and stud/8 than I am at hold'em. I've worked a lot on my hold'em game, but I just don't find it quite as intuitive as the stud games. I also don't enjoy it as much. Anyway, most people play stud/8 pretty badly, so my edge is greater there than in any other game, even though I think my high-only game is a little stronger. Problem is finding a game. $30/60 stud/8 went at Canterbury Park every day for a while in 2002. The game dried up, and apart from this year's Fall Classic, the game is extinct. There's a new home game that's half hold'em and half stud/8 that I have high hopes for. The early returns are good.

The good player's edge in stud/8 is greater than it is in any other standard casino limit poker game. The game attracts chasers, because a lot of hands look good, and it punishes them, because when they're chasing, it's frequently for only half the pot. The extra betting round is a factor. The fact that a monster hand can't be counterfeited as easily as in Omaha/8 is also a factor. In Omaha/8, many are scared to jam with a lock for fear of being quartered or counterfeited. Stud/8 lends itself to lots of jamming, which can make it quite expensive for the chaser.

In high-only stud, the expert has an extra betting round, and he has a lot of information at his disposal which can aid in decision-making. The best high-only stud players make a little more than the best hold'em players, all other things being equal.

In Omaha/8, if you're at a loose table, and you can stay awake (I hate the game), you've practically got a license to print money. People give their money away, and apart from the boredom factor, it's relatively easy to stay out of trouble, in my opinion.

Re: Super System II
 

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If you think stud/8 is boring, you're probably not playing high enough. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Just learning, so I'm playing .50/1 at Party. The boring part is folding and waiting for the next hand. The time delay between folding preflop and the next deal is long enough to be annoying and short enough that you can't get anything else done.

Re: Super System II
 

The ante in the $.50/1.00 game is too high. If you can swing it, I'd definitely recommend the $1/2 game instead.

Having played both those games, I can assure you that $30/60 and $40/80 are much more interesting. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Super System II
 

For me, definitely. I have done very well when mid-limit stud/8 was available to me, and less well when it wasn't.

Re: Super System II
 

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How can it possibly give better advice than HPFAP?

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Can anyone tell me what these all stand for? I know some of the, but not all of them.

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http://www.twoplustwo.com/abbrevs.html