Did I play this too fast?
 

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (18.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 24.25 BB

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (10.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

River: (18.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, CO calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 24.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, and I probably wouldve 3 bet the river. But that may be the lag in me talking now.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

Preflop I am not too sure about. Probably fine in most circumstances. Flop is very good. Turn could possibly be three-bet with 3 opponents, but I think a call is my line. I probably would have 3-bet the river. With no read of "absurdly loose aggro" I can't put him on a str8. The only hand you're realistically looking at that beats you is JJ. I think AJ, KJs, or a slowplayed (on the flop) overpair. With two other players calling along, they are going to make up for the times when it is JJ. I really like a river 3-bet.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

If anything you played this hand like you were scared of the giant one-eyed monster under the bed... you missed a few bets - if villian has JJ then so be it.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

Villian had JJ, CO had 75. I wasn't nearly as ahead as I thought. I was still the favourite to win it, although it was based only upon my draws.

I was in BB PF, and didn't feel it was good enough to raise. Mistake?

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

I would have 3 bet the river.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

I check/raise this river and call a 3-bet, with capping a close second. You didn't play this hand fast at all. You were, if anything, too passive, even if you lost the hand to JJ in the end.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

I'd probably attempt to check-raise the flop.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

I CR the flop as well. You have perfect position to do so against UTG+1 who was the preflop raiser.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

That preflop call in the BB is definitely ok. With any other read than LAG though, I'm check/calling the river. There's been some discussion about betting out on the turn because it'll be +EV to dissuade players in the hand from putting you on a flush draw when you check/call, even though in the actual play it's not wise via pot odds, as you're around 4:1 to hit. I probably would have called down, and folded the river had my flush or 8 not hit, but I'm betting on a boat or straight. Oh yeah, c/r the flop with your immediate left showing pf aggression.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

If I were to tell you that it was a fairly tight table (about 3 to a flop on average, including blinds) and the average pot is about 5xBB, does that change your answer? (This pot was about 450% larger)

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

You might want to be more careful in calling PF raises with a hand like this. It's -EV overall, and the only way it makes sense at all is if there's a small number of people in the pot, and the raiser tends to raise a lot, without having a real rasing hand often times.

On the flop, that's the right way to play this. You've probably got the best hand right now and are drawing to the nuts.

On the turn, if the guy had a set of jacks, I would have expected him to probably raise the river instead of call. So he probably doesn't have this. He's probably got a pair of jacks though. You don't really want to get into a raising war here because you aren't going to get the odds on the extra bet or two.

On the river I would have re-raised. You're the clear favorite here, and anytime this is the case, it's almost always a good idea to stick it to them on the river.

KC
kingcobrapoker.com

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

don't worry that CO had JJ. It happens. a river 3-bet is still the right play here. And, A8s is not your optimal "raise in the BB" type hand, especially when it has already been raised and there are only 4 players.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

thanks for the advice... looks like i've got a lot to learn about limit.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

You could tell me that you had 10k hands on the villian and he only raises TT-AA and I'd still say you played the river too passively.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

I disagree with those of you who want to build a big pot on the flop by checkraising. Hero's hand is definatly strong (with a great redraw) but it still vulnerable to quite a few overcards and gutshots on the turn. The pot is fairly big as it was raised preflop with three callers... betting out is a better play as hopefully villian will raise which will knock out the other players.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with those of you who want to build a big pot on the flop by checkraising. Hero's hand is definatly strong (with a great redraw) but it still vulnerable to quite a few overcards and gutshots on the turn. The pot is fairly big as it was raised preflop with three callers... betting out is a better play as hopefully villian will raise which will knock out the other players.

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I don't see this. Either we're building a pot for our 9 outs to fill our flush, or we're trying to protect our tptk. I know Shillx was talking about a similar play seeing a flush draw on the turn being +EV to raise on the turn to get HU for the river, but I don't like it on the flop. Big pot, I don't like the odds of us thinning down the field with a bet out more than I like building a pot for when we do hit our nut flush.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

C/r the flop. C/c the turn. C/r the river.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

Is there a reason you dont think its possible to protect hero's hand? If he can't protect his hand then I'm all for building a huge pot but both SSH and TOP say that in a big pot you should try to knock out opponents to increase your winning chances as opposed to building the pto...

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

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Is there a reason you dont think its possible to protect hero's hand? If he can't protect his hand then I'm all for building a huge pot but both SSH and TOP say that in a big pot you should try to knock out opponents to increase your winning chances as opposed to building the pto...

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I conceptually thought of protection betting and raises as a method of making it unprofitable for draws and the like to continue to pay into the pot on hands that you're likely winning, but unlikely to win the larger the pool of players. In this case though, you've got such a strong draw that I think building the pot for when you do pull it off outweighs whatever the odds you are of winning the pot UI.

I'm not arguing that it's not possible to protect this hand, but that you don't want to.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

Protection betting/raising can also have the effect of influencing profitable calling hands to fold as they may think you are stronger than you are. For example, a raise with an overpair make make somebody fold a five out hand who had correct odds to call fold because he thinks you may have a set.

Anyhow, I just read the sections of SSH and TOP about large pots again and neither suggest anything other than trying to win a large pot right away. What you say does make some sense to me theoretically... I'd imagine that some of the other player's wouldn't have correct odds to call a bet but other's will. However, it seem's inherently wrong to me allow people to make correct calls when you can possibly set up a situation where they either have to pay too much to see the next card or fold.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

I'm going to have to think about this myself. I always find myself in situations like this, and the only thing I think about is "oooh, look at the pretty colors" and operate like that's the only thing to worry about, because it'll be a stronger hand if it does hit, even though protection might also be important.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I was still the favourite to win it, although it was based only upon my draws.

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After the turn, no you weren't. JJ had more outs to the boat (10) than you did for your nut flush (9).

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

why should you bet on the turn ? With him raising the flop you have a good change he has a high pocket pair. He has more outs than you, and your not drawing for the nuts. I think it would be have been better to check-call the turn. on the river i probaly would have done the same, bet-call raise.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

[ QUOTE ]
why should you bet on the turn ? With him raising the flop you have a good change he has a high pocket pair. He has more outs than you, and your not drawing for the nuts. I think it would be have been better to check-call the turn. on the river i probaly would have done the same, bet-call raise.

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This is weak, monster-seeing type thinking and is hurting my brain. When villain raises the flop he could have a variety of things including A high, where he was raising to protect. And BTW, hero IS drawing to the nuts. An A high flush on a non-paired board would definitely be the nuts (discounting the unlikely potential str8 flush). I hope you see that. If you don't, read a book. the nut flush draw with a pair and A kicker, with 4 others in the pot is a GREAT spot to bet here. As for the river, we are going to win this pot a LOT. The only reasonable hand we are behind here given the aggression is JJ, and villain will have that very seldom. AA/KK/QQ/AJ are just as (or more) likely than JJ. This makes a river 3-bet pretty profitable, especially with two other people (who have shown no aggression) calling down. Your thinking sounds like it is pretty weak tight to me.

This post sounds pretty harsh. I don't mean it to sound mean-spirited. It's 6am and I am too tired to tone it down. Sorry.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

ok your wright he is drawing for the nuts (but with only 9 outs then) Why bet on the turn, if your drawing and he has better ods ? You don't get value from your bet on the turn.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

You have 9 outs to the nut flush on this hand. you will make this flush (roughly) 1 in 5 times. We can also pretty safely assume that both of the other 8's are clean. This gives us2 more outs. There are 3 more aces in the deck, so we will count them as 1.5 outs total. This means that you have a total of 9+2+1.5 = 12.5 outs. so the odds of hitting your hand is a bit better than 1 in 4. A bet here is good because if everybody calls (not too uncommon) you are making money because you are only putting in 1/5 of the money on this round. If 1 person folds (more likely) then you are still at break even, with a chance to perhaps get a cheap showdown if you miss, because people may be afraid of your aggression on previous streets. Calling once youi get raised on the turn is generally fine (though I think a somewhat weak case could be made for capping in this case), but it is very important to get that first raise in there in this case.

EDIT: somebody tell me if my math is wrong and correct me. This is the first time I've tried a post like this [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

Hey niediam,

You make very good points, and I think I'd share your view say if hero had flopped an ace, rather than an 8 as top pair. Since the original poster didn't include any reads (maybe I missed them) I'm going to assume the preflop raiser is typical party $.5/1 - Which means he plays 40-50% hands and only raises when he's got the goods (usually).

I think hero is behind AA-JJ here most of the time here (of course we could also see AK or AQ) and is going to need that draw to win, so I'm taking the angle that I'm going to try to make money off the draw.

That's just my gut instinct, and if it's flat out wrong, then I've got a thing or two to learn.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

a's and 8's are not outs, because there not the nuts. In fact if one of these carts fall it can cost you only extra.
there only 4 players, so even if youre odds are 1:4 you only break even at most.
So i still think you don't get value for that bet on the turn and should check (and call).

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

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a's and 8's are not outs, because there not the nuts.

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That's very incorrect. Landing and Ace or 8 will win you the pot a good chunk of the time, you don't need the nuts to win the pot.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

but then you need better odds.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

1.) Bet/reraise the flop.
2.) Bet/call the turn.
3.) Check/call the river. (Check/raise if you want to get aggressive)

Could UTG+1 have Jacks, fives, or sevens? Could be. If so, you're screwed, but that and 10 9 are the only hands I see beating you - a straight is possible from UTG+1, but highly unlikely given his preflop raise. Would he raise with 10 9? I'm betting he has AJ. So I think you're good here, but no need to get buck wild with a raise in case he does have you beat.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

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a's and 8's are not outs, because there not the nuts. In fact if one of these carts fall it can cost you only extra.
there only 4 players, so even if youre odds are 1:4 you only break even at most.
So i still think you don't get value for that bet on the turn and should check (and call).

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In my post I discounted the A outs appropriately to 1.5 (I think that's even a little conservative given this particular situation). If you are only betting the nuts in the micro games you are missing out on a LOT of money, like at least 1BB/100 (probably as high as 2 in .5/1). Your thinking is WEAKIE-WEAK-ASS TIGHT. Take off the monster goggles and start playing good SS poker. I think I made a very good case for a turn bet, and if you can't see why, you need to study this forum some more. I know I sound like a total prick, but seriously, this is a key to winning poker.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

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Protection betting/raising can also have the effect of influencing profitable calling hands to fold as they may think you are stronger than you are.

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That's hardly true at this level. Plus given the action the flop, it doesn't look like you're going to fold out multiple better hands than here.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

i don't only bet the nuts in these games of course. But if its not the nuts i want better odds, or else you loose in the long run.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

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I disagree with those of you who want to build a big pot on the flop by checkraising. Hero's hand is definatly strong (with a great redraw)

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Just on the basis of his top pair no way is Hero's hand here that strong. I'd play this just the way it is, a very strong draw hand that needs to improve in order to win a showdown against multiple opponents.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

Dred, do you see what discounting the outs for the aces does? Think of an answer, and then read the following in white: <font color="white"> By discounting the ace outs, we account for the times that we make our ace, but get defeated by unfortunate hands like AJ or AA (in this case). By doing this, we force ourselves to try to get better odds than valuing them at 3 outs. So, actually, when you said that you wanted better odds, you were right to want better odds if considering the aces as three outs, but I had already taken that into consideration when I devalued them to 1.5 </font>

Why should the 8's count as full outs if they are obviously not going to be the nuts?? This is a legitimate question that you seem to have. Think about possible reasons, and read this in white: <font color="white"> Well, given the action on the flop and turn, we can be almost certain that no straight is out there, and we can be fairly certain that nobody flopped a set. When the flop raiser slows down, he clearly doesn't have it, and 88 or 77 are unlikely pf raising hands for the pf aggressor. So, the only hand we will really worry about is the possible JJ. How often do you think villain will have JJ? I would say at most, 1 in 10 times, and I have a feeling that it's a bit closer to 1 in 15. </font>

somebody holla at me if I'm out of line here, or in my previous math.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

ok, you discounted the a's. But saying that the chance of him having JJ is 1:10 i don't think thats true. Because of his raise on the flop you almost know that he has high pocket pair and thus JJ change more like 1:4.
You also know he is probaley going to raise again. So with 4 players you still make even money (at most) and not gain anything with betting on the turn only the change that someone will fold and then you loose value on your bet.

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

I think you need to start listening to jax and think through his arguments a bit more, I think most that post on 2+2 would agree with his analysis.

And to suggest that he is 20-25% likely to have JJ at showdown in that hand is ludicrous.

T

Re: Did I play this too fast?
 

[ QUOTE ]
ok, you discounted the a's. But saying that the chance of him having JJ is 1:10 i don't think thats true. Because of his raise on the flop you almost know that he has high pocket pair and thus JJ change more like 1:4.
You also know he is probaley going to raise again. So with 4 players you still make even money (at most) and not gain anything with betting on the turn only the change that someone will fold and then you loose value on your bet.

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I am very happy that you understand the devaluing overcards concept. It can be a bit tough.

It appears you have misread the hand. It was not UTG+1 who raised the flop, it was MP2. The fact that UTG+1 did not raise this flop makes it pretty unlikely that he has a an overpair. Most players at the micros will go nuts with an overpair here on the flop. This makes it way, way more likely that he missed his hand with overcards and can't let them go. On the flop, obviously hero should be capping with this many callers and a 30+% chance to hit his nut flush. On the turn, a bet IS appropriate, when nobody else is willing to show significant strength on the flop (and hero's great chance to improve). An overcard to our pair did hit, but we don't need to give UTG+1 credit for it just yet. He could just as easily had AK, AQ, ATs, KQ(most likely suited). When he raises, it becomes apparent that he is ahead with a possible AJ or slowplayed overpair (which I hope you see is very unlikely). The key is this: before we see UTG+1's raise on the turn, there are many, many hands that we are ahead of that hero is likely to have, and substantially less that we are behind

hands we are ahead of: 12 possible AQ, 12 possible AK, 3 possible ATs (ATo is viable as well, but I'll leave it out) All of these, UTG+1 is liable to have called on the flop with.

Hands we are behind: 9 possible AJ hands, 3 KJs hands, and maybe even 3 QJs hands. I am not going to include big PP here because of the flop activity (or lack of it).

The river bet is great, because even if somebody did happen to hit their jack, it's at least a breakeven street for me. This means that I am NOT losing the money that I put into the pot here. It may seem like it on this hand, but if you had a whole bunch of hands exactly like this, you would break even in the long run. if you are familiar with the concept of EV, this play is at very worst, a neutral EV, and I think (I believe others will concur) that this play s actually slightly +EV. (If you don't know about EV, then don't really worry about. +EV=good, -EV =bad).

what a fucl&lt;ing essay. sorry for the long-windedness, and thanks to those who actually read it. If any disputes, fire away. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]