i\'m a lag?
 

Sorry if this is boring...multitabling and a bit inattentive so no good read

Party 2/4 (10 handed)

PF:I get AKd and raise UTG.
One coldcaller (52/0/0.3 with WSD 39 after 50 hands) in MP2 with everyone else folding.

Flop: (5.5SB, 2players) 4s 6c Tc
i bet, he calls.

Turn: (3.75BB, 2players) Th
i bet , he calls.

River: (5.75BB, 2players) 5d
i bet, he calls.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

River bet is bad. Check/fold

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

I'm fine with this. He could be on a draw at end. If I check I probably call the river, so betting is probably better.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

is this not an instance of him calling your bet more than he'd he'd bet your check?

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

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River bet is bad. Check/fold

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River bet is bad. But so is check / folding.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

i was also wondering what turn cards people would bet on (the alternative being the check-fold?) in this hand and the (imaginary) hand where T on flop replaced by 9.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

Sure. The river is close. If I had more than 50 hands and knew a bet meant a pair or better I'd check/fold. But since your read isn't great other than to tell you the opponent is very loose and likely passive I think this is an OK value bet with AK.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

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River bet is bad. Check/fold

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River bet is bad. But so is check / folding.

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Against a guy as passive as OP described?

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

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If I had more than 50 hands and knew a bet meant a pair or better I'd check/fold.

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Hey chief, you said that you 8 table. Are you able to take notes on people to make these kind of reads or are is their something in PT? Thanks.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

52/0/.3 says a lot even after 50 hands. Betting the river is fine IMO. This guy could have any two cards, but I think he pays you off with a worse A enough.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

I don't take many notes. I rely on PT/Playerview. But 50 hands isn't real reliable. The notes I do take the time to type in though are often a specific situation such as this...or HU since some players get a little crazy in blind stealing/defense...or check/raising tendency...etc. A lot of my notes are river specific.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

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River bet is bad. Check/fold

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River bet is bad. But so is check / folding.

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Against a guy as passive as OP described?

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Even some passives will occasionally bluff in that spot. See it all the time at Party 2/4 ...

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

The pot is pretty small so his bluffing frequency needs to be semi-high to make calling a bet profitable. Don't get me wrong I check/call with AK UI on the river a fair amount, but usually against more aggro opponents.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

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The pot is pretty small so his bluffing frequency needs to be semi-high to make calling a bet profitable.

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- 50 hands doesn't give us a rock solid read
- Bluffing 1 in 6 times is not really high
- Nothing was mentioned about seeing this opponent show down a hand yet
- When you fold, you're inviting another bluff in the same situation later on, and will be faced with this same decision again - so check call this time and make decisions in the same situation later based on the outcome.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

I friggin' hate these kinds of hands (OOP with air vs LPP cold-caller)... but this is where the "real" poker is played.

I always have trouble putting cold-callers on hands; in my experience, this kind of clown could have anything from AQo to clubs to 77 to 22. The only hands I'm ruling out by the river are overpairs (JJ+) and obvious monsters (sets/boats, trip T's, two pair).

WSD = 39 seems a little high to me... I like to think I can check-call here with just A-high, since I'll occasionally do this with a made hand in an attempt to induce a bluff. If he's truly passive, he may just check-through his busted draw... I dunno, I'm rambling...


Tom

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

Well only debateable part is the river and while you can make loads of arguments wether to check/call or bet/fold I prefer the check/call.

This way you loose the least and if your lucky you can induce a bluff from a busted draw. However chances of inducing anything from a passive is difficult.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

Try Checking the turn, as u have no information about what ur opp mite be holding.

If ur gonna be a proper lag c/r the turn when he bets [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

remember this is appears to be a calling station and not agressive (Not enough hands to make a gd read on tho) so u can pretty much count on him checking it down no real need to bet the turn or river.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

If he checks it down it's usually because AK is good.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he checks it down it's usually because AK is good.

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Your Point being?

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

Please don't bet this river.

Your opponent is very rarely calling with a worse hand.

Your options are:

1. Check with the intent of calling if you think your opponent is capable of bluffing a missed draw/A high here.

2. Check with the intent of folding against a passive opponent.

Betting AK unimproved out of position on the river is one of those things that many poker authors universally recognize to be a mistake (commonly made by many players). Your hand is a very borderline hand; it's like the worst hand possible you could conceivably be betting all the way down, and hence anyone calling on the river usually has you beat.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

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Your Point being?

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That I value bet AK against this opponent on a TT64 board 100% of the time. I don't think the turn is close whatsoever.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

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If he checks it down it's usually because AK is good.

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Your Point being?

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He calls with a weaker ace or folds a small pp? He doesn't get to see what you had and is scared of you in the future?

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Your Point being?

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That I value bet AK against this opponent on a TT64 board 100% of the time. I don't think the turn is close whatsoever.

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Chief is right.

People need to start value-betting AK on the turn MORE and on the river LESS.

You are MUCH more likely to get a call on the turn from an inferior hand than on the river. There is also the protection factor; AK is a hand with showdown value and giving opponents free cards to make pairs really sucks.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

Thanks for the responses. I don't know who to believe. My analysis might (now) be that he could have a some pocket pairs, the odd overcard combination, some flushdraws with other hands less likely. Maybe should try doing sums, and maybe it's close but probably good 1/6.75 so, without reads on river betting patterns, bet as TOP says and fold to the raise(even w/o reads). so maybe i believed the chief.

Villain had Q3(+ flush draw). Nice.

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

sorry,
is Deranged right?

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

yes

Re: i\'m a lag?
 

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52/0/.3 says a lot even after 50 hands. Betting the river is fine IMO. This guy could have any two cards, but I think he pays you off with a worse A enough.

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That plus if he beats you you're encouraging him to call you down next time and next time and next time.