I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

third hand at table so I have no stats...

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
[color=#666666]1 fold</font>, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises</font>, [color=#666666]5 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font>
[color=#CC3333]BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font>
[color=#CC3333]BB bets</font>, [color=#CC3333]Hero raises</font>, [color=#CC3333]BB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (9.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [color=#0000FF](2 players)</font>
[color=#CC3333]BB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB


agree with raised turn? river raise ?

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

i raise flop

as you played it, just call the turn.
what were you hoping to achieve? fold equity?

oh... and raise the river, of course. BB is screaming made hand at you on the turn

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

The turn action tells you he's not chasing a flush draw I think. So raise up the river, about the only logical hand you lose to is Q9spades.

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

I had the winning hand... I was just really upset cause I couldn't figure out why i played it like that

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

[ QUOTE ]
i raise flop

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Uh, why? You're heads-up. Villan is betting into your preflop raise. Even if that means he ONLY has TP or 2PTK, you don't have enough outs to raise for value (15 by my count, assuming you're not reverse-dominated by KJ/QJ/etc), and you're pot-committing yourself.

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

It's read dependent but a flop raise may also buy a free card.

The turn raise is bad and unless this guy is 3-betting the turn with flush draws, raise the river please.

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

Warning, I haven't been playing a lot of poker recently, and when I have, it's been no-limit, but I'm trying to get back in the game, so here's my advice (not necessarily for use against typical 0.5/1 party donks):

You should definitely have raised this flop, maybe even for value against some hands like 66 that may be leading out to try to get you to fold. Getting increased folding equity on the turn would have been nice too...

(Edit: Hmm... Shant would have taken the free card and boz would have just called, so my stance here, which is to bet the turn if he checks to you, may be just a little too aggressive.)

...However, waiting to the turn to raise doesn't make sense for a few reasons:

1) If you had a hand, you would have attempted to charge him for it on this draw-heavy flop, so your turn raise isn't actually that scary. You'd also have wanted to try to find out where you stood on the flop rather than the turn if you had a real hand here.

2) It sucks when you get three-bet on the turn. I'm not sure of the math of this, but it sucks, trust me. You've got to be getting folds quite often here.

3) It's cheaper to try to fold the guy on the flop than on the turn.

So, raise the flop, but if you just call the flop, also just call the turn.

---

On the river, he hasn't done anything to show that he has a flush draw. Therefore raise. If he three-bets you, you've got a tough decision to make, because it looks like he bet-three-bet you with a set, trying to make an ace pay off, but once you raised the turn, you weren't representing an ace, and a hand like KK calls vs the river bet, so I'm not quite sure what he might have to make that play... So calling a three-bet is probably okay. But if you had just called the turn and he bet-three-bets on the river, now go ahead and cap it. The better your opponent plays, the more willing you should be to cap this river, if you just called the turn.

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The turn action tells you he's not chasing a flush draw I think. So raise up the river, about the only logical hand you lose to is Q9spades.

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T8s spades too?

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had the winning hand... I was just really upset cause I couldn't figure out why i played it like that

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, we know you've got the winning hand! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

It's alright man, I know for sure that everyone who replied to this post has made plays worse than calling this river. If you dig deep enough in the archives, you could probably find evidence. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

Nah... no one else has EVER made a bad play...

EVER

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

I raise the flop.

When villian bets into us after our PFR we can assume we are behind.

But because our hands equity remains the same against just about any of villian's holdings, a raise on the flop only has to buy us a free card a small % of the time to be for value.


What I'm having a hard time deciding is whether or not to take the free card if offered it...

Thoughts?

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

Villian isn't betting into us with air on the flop.
Of his potential holdings that only call a flop raise, I don't see enough of them folding to a turn bet to make not taking the free card worth it.

I decided.
Raise flop. Check behind on turn.

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Getting increased folding equity on the turn would have been nice too...

It sucks when you get three-bet on the turn....

If he three-bets you, you've got a tough decision to make...

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave, nice to "see" you. How's NL treating you.

My point was it's going to suck to get 3-bet ANYWHERE in this hand, except the river, because Hero doesn't have anything until the very end.

Raising the flop, especially if you get 3-bet is going to tie you to the pot. otoh, you're pretty well tied to it, anyway, with call it 12 outs, I s'pose.

Without a read, though, against him open-betting into a PFR, my assumption is that he's made a hand (JT/TT/44...I'd figure he'd 3-bet JJ) on the flop, and your FE is somewhere in the neighborhood of zero no matter what you do. And, has been said many, many times in this forum, it's pointless to try and put a play on the average .5/1 Party player without a very strong read that it'll work (I guess you did say that in your disclaimer).

So, what'd he show you Rinera? I know YHIG, but what were his cards?

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

Grunch:
I think raise this flop and call a 3b. You will have more info. If he 3b flop maybe call turn and raise river when you hit. You may get a free turn card. The way you played flop, I would just call turn and try to hit my river outs cheaply.
I don't think he was on flush draw so raise river.

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

I would say raise the flop. at .5/1 party people will bet out even bottom pair against a preflop raise. I would if I caught a 10 or jack or 4 to flush or oesd. I have no reason to expect the raiser to have better than overs. I would push to see how much they like their hand. I prefer pushing the smaller bets than the turn bets. raise the flop and hope to take a free turn card if ui.

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

Good morning.... He showed.... let me find it Jh, 4d

Nothing special

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

I like a flop raise. It's not quite for value, but it's better than a "pure" free card play.

Definately check/call on the turn. There's absolutely no reason to raise here.

Not raising the river is really bad. Call a 3-bet.

Re: I know I didn\'t play it right.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Getting increased folding equity on the turn would have been nice too...

It sucks when you get three-bet on the turn....

If he three-bets you, you've got a tough decision to make...

[/ QUOTE ]

Dave, nice to "see" you. How's NL treating you.



[/ QUOTE ]

Small sample size, so I can't be sure. I was having fun slapping around the weak-tighties at the $25 NLHE games on the x-skins. I was surprised by the difference in the texture of the games when I moved to the $100 games at a few different sites: there were more loose-passives and my heavy-bluffing strategy became costly.

I also got surprised by someone who overlimp-reraised with AA when I had QQ. I just figured that AA would LRR but not OLRR. I was wrong. I was also tired at the time. Lessons learned...

NLHE is fun. Check it out some time, but make sure that you have a roll somewhere between 20x and 30x the buy-in (since the buy-in is the amount that you're potentially putting at risk in terms of calculating bankroll-risk-of-ruin). $25x20=500. (This is a general call to microlimit players... boz probably has $500 stuffed into each of his socks right now)

I was single-tabling while playing NLHE, which is a more worthwhile way of experiencing any poker game.

[ QUOTE ]
My point was it's going to suck to get 3-bet ANYWHERE in this hand, except the river, because Hero doesn't have anything until the very end.


[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. The problem that I see is that some people will take a shot at you on any flop with no AKQ on it. Also, some people will bet-call on the flop and then bet-fold the turn... I've seen raises here win the pot. But I'm not sure. If I'm in the BB and I have a hand like QJ, I like to checkraise this flop rather than bet it, too.

Unfortunately I'm not 100% sure what to do, but I think that the risk of getting three-bet on a JTx board is enough that we should consider just calling down. It's almost definitely the best play.

When you quoted me as saying "tough decision", I wish that you made it a little more clear that I was talking about the river play and not the turn play. But I'm a pretty forgiving guy, so I'll let it slide. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

The central theme of my reasoning behind capping vs a three-bet for sure if you called the turn and not-necessarily-for-sure after you raised the turn is that you're no longer able to represent having AK, for example. You were playing your hand a little more like how AA would play. Therefore when he three-bets you, there's some measure of doubt about what he is likely to hold (Q9s spades and T8s spades become much more of a possibility than they normally would be, for example). AA in this case would have just made top set, and KK wouldn't have raised the river, so, what would you be raising if you don't have AK? A flush or a straight, right?

Now, of course I have no idea how much of this is going through our opponent's head, so it might be just fine to cap it, but it kinda sucks at the same time.

[ QUOTE ]

Raising the flop, especially if you get 3-bet is going to tie you to the pot. otoh, you're pretty well tied to it, anyway, with call it 12 outs, I s'pose.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, this doesn't seem to be a useful argument in this case, since we're tied no matter what.

[ QUOTE ]
So, what'd he show you Rinera? I know YHIG, but what were his cards?

[/ QUOTE ]

Poor guy... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

We don't technically know that his hand is good just yet, as there are those two valid hands that villain could have had to beat him... but... yeah...

Also, you're right about it not being wise to put moves on average 0.5/1 players. During a big bonuswhore fest it might be the right time to try it out, though. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]