K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

Button is 44/10 but passive post-flop.
The player in the SB position just left, so there was none.
BB is 44/12 but more aggressive on later streets.

I consider my specific reads on both of them to be fairly strong.

I think I steal too many blinds. Is this a case where I should have backed off? Should the lack of a small blind influence my decision either way?

Advice on all streets, please.

Full Tilt .50/1 (8-handed, no SB)

Preflop: <font color="green">marchron</font> is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="green">marchron raises</font> . . .

Good move?

. . . <font color="#666666">BT folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="green">marchron . . .</font>

Now what? He clearly thinks I have nothing and is being his LAGgy self. I have TP2K and I doubt very much he has anything save maybe two overs. Do I let him know I hit this flop, or dare I continue to let him bet into me?


Edited to rearrange the thought patterns.

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

I probably push back right then, regardless of hitting the flop. If he is super agro he may keep pushing back with ace high or 76 or any part of the flop. I tend to keep raising him until he folds or turns over the nuts on blind steals.

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

Easy steal preflop. Raising here or calling and raising any turn is cool.

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

'Kay. But which is cooler?

And should I really stop-n-go ANY turn card? Even A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
'Kay. But which is cooler?

And should I really stop-n-go ANY turn card? Even A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]?

[/ QUOTE ]
When you say he's passive postflop, does that mean he pays off? Will he get afraid of a turn raise and fold? If not, I'll raise any turn.

And yeah, even the A:clubs: because you can pretty safely fold to a 3-bet there if he is passive.

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

Button was the passive one, and he folded to the steal. (I only mentioned his stats because I didn't know he'd fold and wondered if stealing was wise given his profile.)

This villain is aggressive, but not overly so, and will back down if someone else gets in his face and he doesn't have the cards.

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

How can you stop n go? You are in position here.

Yeah as shant said sometimes pop the flop and sometimes raise the turn. It really doesn't matter much.

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

Ah OK, my bad. I'd just raise now because I'd like to get into a raising war with him. Since this is a steal situation, I'd be afraid to raise any turn because I wouldn't want to fold the turn to a 3-bet against an aggro player.

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

Hmm. Didn't know "stop-n-go" was position-dependent. Thought it meant anytime you smooth-call a hand you can raise with then raise on the next card. Noted.

I wish posters here would be more consistent with their slowplaying advice, though. Why doesn't it matter in this case? Are there clear-cut guidelines as to when I should wait or not?

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

Now shant's changing his tune. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

Haha, it doesn't matter because when you play higher limits, you will be in a lot more steal situations. I guess they don't happen very often at .5/1. When you are in this spot frequently against this guy, you will want to mix it up so he can't figure out that you will always raise the flop with a pair. That's why it doesn't matter much.

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

I wish posters here would be more consistent with their slowplaying advice, though. Why doesn't it matter in this case? Are there clear-cut guidelines as to when I should wait or not?

Most poker isn't this clear cut. There are multiple ways to play certain situations, and all can be correct or at least almost correct. Here are some things to think about.

- If you have a board like 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], you should be much more inclined to jam the flop with good hands.

- If the flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], you would be better off waiting to raise the river with strong hands (AK type hands, not top set). The exception would be if he is a LAG/maniac.

Why?

1) If the flop is 9c6s3c and it goes bet-call, there are going to be a lot of scary cards that might slow the villian down on 4th. There aren't any scary turn cards when the flop is A72r, so you can expect him to bet the turn a higher % of the time.

2) It is far more likely that the villian is on a straight bluff when the board is A72. Give him a chance to throw some $$$ away. He will be on a semi-bluff type hand on a 963 board so getting a raise in on the river does no good. Likewise you lose less by waiting with your AK when the villain flopped a set or 2-pair in the A72 hand.

3) It makes sense to play a board like the one in your hand fast with K9 since you are going to playing a lot of draws fast (and sets). The only hands you will be playing fast in the other hand are AA and 77 and A7. So just because you are willing to put a lot of bets in doesn't mean that you have a good made hand. He might be willing to put more bets in thinking that you just have a draw, yet when you have a draw you give up very little in terms of equity, so it is a win-win for you. Either he pays off your TPTK/overpair hands or he folds winners or stuff with decent equity when you are jamming something like AQ [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

That's what I'm talking about. Good stuff, shill.

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

By the by, the conclusion of the hand:

Flop: (4 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, <font color="green">marchron raises</font>, <font color="#666666">BB folds</font>.

Outcome: marchron wins 5.75 BB.

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

I jam the flop now. In all likelihood he's got one over, but he might be pushing the 4-flush.

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

This is a good steal.

Flop:
You said you steal alot. You should tend to jam the flop when you steal. Since you will be stealing from the same characters often they will be used to your insane heads up flailing. Such an image may allow you to cap the flop here.

Have you read the section "What you must realize" in Advanced Players? Blind steal is the closest one gets to heads up play in a multiplayer game (besides SB vs BB). If you switch gears from tight aggressive in the normal game to maniac in the blind steal, you get deception plus sound strategy.

In summary, cap the flop if BB is any non-passive.

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

No, I haven't read HPFAP. Was pushing for it for Christmas, though. Had to settle for Tournament PFAP.

Does anyone think the lack of a small blind in this hand alters things? On one hand, there's 1/3 less for me to steal and I'm risking 2 SB to win 1. But on the other, instead of running over two players who've already invested money and might feel like they have to protect their blinds, I get the BB (who's the same in either case), but I force the button to call two cold.

This is one of those situations where I was working off the script; so far as I know I haven't seen anyone write about a hand like this, and I posted it to judge how far in my poker development I've come. Can I use what I've learned in those hands I know to extrapolate to those hands I don't, or will I wind up lost?

I think I did okay.

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

My gut instinct is that the gain for not having the SB to worry about exceeds the .5 SB extra in the pot. I could very well be wrong though...

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm. Didn't know "stop-n-go" was position-dependent. Thought it meant anytime you smooth-call a hand you can raise with then raise on the next card. Noted.

I wish posters here would be more consistent with their slowplaying advice, though. Why doesn't it matter in this case? Are there clear-cut guidelines as to when I should wait or not?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll give you my thoughts, though I reserve the right to make a bad play at any time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I generally don't wait HU with small cards like these, even on a drawy board. some reasons why:

1) he might not always bet the turn. if he has a hand like clubs or 78, he could be hoping you fold or just betting because his cards are pretty

2) if he does have a made hand, and a card like an A or K comes, he may freeze up and go into his shell, fearing that your "obvious" AK just hit. he may still call down (do they ever fold) but now you've cost yourself 1SB

3) against real aggro players who aren't maniacal, I generally prefer that 3SB go in (on the flop) rather than 3 BB (on the turn) if I can't fold (worse 9, draws getting nutty, etc) and all I have is one pair

I'd be more inclined to pull thwe waiting for turn line on an A or K or Q or generally drawless board, because he's more likely to lead again, less cards will make either of us freeze up, and he's less likely to 3-bet me cause he sees clubs and assumes I must be semibluffing. of course this is more thought than I'd give an unknown for at many limits, but these are my typical thoughts in my games.

that said, shant has a good point for two reasons

1) it's important to mix it up occasionally. if I called and raised the turn last time and he folded, I'll raise the flop this time and see if that gets more $ out of him. I can't use that to get a great read because it's so situation dependant, but yeah.

2) if the things I typed are correct (no guarantee) where does one draw the line between wanting to wait and raising now? K top pair? T top pair? 9 top pair? how drawy does the board have to be? etc. I think if you think about why you want to make certain moves and what kinds of hands he might have and how he'll respond with each of them you'll come up with a pretty good frequency, since who knows, maybe it doesn't matter after all

Re: K/9o in CO, dead SB — steal?
 

BTW raise PF for sure [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]