fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (14 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises ??</font>

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

I'd raise this one everytime.

Just because SB bets doesn't mean he has a higher flush.
I usually continue to bet myself in this situation if I have a
decent holding. Besides if he has a lone [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or trips you wan't to make him pay as much as possible (although you can't force him to make an error) to draw out on you.

If reraised, call down.

-Edit- If your lucky and SB doesn't have a spade you may even get the button to fold a small [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] thinking he's drawing dead.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

I'd raise. Given his preflop play the only hands he's likely to hold that beat you are AK/AQ/KQs or JJ (or poss 77 (there's a tiny chance he's playing 99, but not worth worrying about.) Obviously he could be playing any AA/KK/QQ/AJ or any single Ace of spades too, so worth a raise. If he 3-bets, I call though, given the board has paired and you've got a mini flush.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

I fold this preflop most of the time.
Flop raise is read-dependend.
Raise the turn.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

Grunching . . .

Uh, fold preflop? You have suited connectors, but your hand stinks. Seriously. The blind raising is your worst nightmare, 'cause now you're in for two bets with this piece-of-crap hand.

On the flop you . . . raised?? Well, you got three callers so it's worth it.

You've made your flush on the turn. Now, raising is essential. You don't want either one of them to draw to a bigger flush or a boat without paying dearly for the privelege.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

Yes, raise the turn. The preflop call and the flop raise might be questionable, but raising the turn is not.

You say SB is a fish and the bet is a donkbet so what is there to hesitate about? Your only worry is the button, who coldcalled on the flop. Might have a bigger flush.

The SB, if he really is a fish, likely has AA, KK, or QQ. He will pay you off and spend the next month ranting about his bad beat.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

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On the flop you . . . raised?? Well, you got three callers so it's worth it.



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I don`t do it against an aggressive SB that might 3-bet TP.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

you people need to rethink your preflop play if you're folding that.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

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you people need to rethink your preflop play if you're folding that.

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Pokerroom stats give it a -.13 EV for average players. You good players can make money with it and it is probably a lot of fun too. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

So I can see it would be a good way to sharpen your post flop play. Like raising this flop with at best a 30% equity to buy the button, as a free card play and to get more bets in if you hit the turn and the action dries up. Neh?

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

As standard as it gets, especially with a low flush, because you want Button to pay 2 BB to see the river with a higher spade.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

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you people need to rethink your preflop play if you're folding that.

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I must have missed the part in SSHE where it was recommended to play 4/3 suited even in a 7-way pot.

Seriously, I must have missed it, 'cause it's seriously there.

I'm still folding it, because I'm a weenie like that.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

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you people need to rethink your preflop play if you're folding that.

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I must have missed the part in SSHE where it was recommended to play 4/3 suited even in a 7-way pot.

Seriously, I must have missed it, 'cause it's seriously there.

I'm still folding it, because I'm a weenie like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

SSHE says to play em as low as 54s. 34s isn't much of a stretch from the CO with the whole damn table limping.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

How did you get past PF with a raise to you holding 34s?

Anyway, now that you landed your nice flush (nice pot, 11BB on the turn), raise that turn. Knock out anyone holding one [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or two pair drawing to a boat.

Just for the record, I'm loving the flop raise.

-AC

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

Fold preflop, the lowest I'd ever go here is 45s. I know 34s is very, very close to that hand, but you could make the argument that 45o is pretty damn close to 45s, so why not run that hand here as well? Soon you'll be playing any 2 with this logic.

Definitely raise the turn, you can't allow the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] to draw cheaply. I see no reason to suspect a full house is out there, and if there's a higher made flush, you're going to lose some bets because you need to extract value when you are ahead, which ought to be the case most of the time here.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

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Just for the record, I'm loving the flop raise.

-AC

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That's too bad, because it kinda sucks.

Preflop is fine. Call the flop. Raise the turn.

Rob

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
SSHE says to play em as low as 54s. 34s isn't much of a stretch from the CO with the whole damn table limping.

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[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, the lowest I'd ever go here is 45s. I know 34s is very, very close to that hand, but you could make the argument that 45o is pretty damn close to 45s, so why not run that hand here as well? Soon you'll be playing any 2 with this logic.

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First off, thank you very much for all of the responses. I appreciate the input, but...

Buck, how much better is 54s compared to a 43s? Look, I love SSHE and all, but those guidelines aren't set in stone. I have a family pot here and I have 2 suited connectors. With this many callers and my position I make this limp every time.

As far as the flop raise, was this a little nutso? Perhaps. But I had been at this table a long time and hadn't seen a 3-bet since I've been there. I took the risk for the chance at a free turn. And I know people aren't folding to my raise(except perhaps the button) with their money already in the pot.

I haven't been playing poker very long, and this has been the first real loose/passive game I had played at. I'm still learning how to apply what I've learned from all the books I've read, and know I'm going to make mistakes. But from what I saw at THIS particular table in THIS particular situation I felt that flop raise was correct.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

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Just for the record, I'm loving the flop raise.

-AC

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That's too bad, because it kinda sucks.

Preflop is fine. Call the flop. Raise the turn.

Rob

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OK, let's play pro/con here:

Pro - The 4flush is his ONLY way out of this hand.

Pro - He's getting 8:1 plus any implied odds when action returns to him. The raise here is for value, since its likely that players won't fold a late raise after investing $.25 in a pot with a VERY coordinated board.

Pro - Its safe to assume at least one caller is drawing to the straight thats on board, not the flush. This means implied odds are definitely not an afterthought here, and some situations WILL give you lots of equity.

The only (biggest) con I can think of is:

Con - There could be other players drawing to a flush, and 4-high is not very inspiring.

This, however, is the purpose of the turn raise. Of course, I'm sure you have a big list of cons that I'm interested in hearing.

-AC

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just for the record, I'm loving the flop raise.

-AC

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That's too bad, because it kinda sucks.

Preflop is fine. Call the flop. Raise the turn.

Rob

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A flop raise isnt that horrible is it? Theres a good chance button will cold call, and we'll be getting 3:1 on our bet when we have about 33% equity. At worst, button folds, we don't get a free card, and our flop raise was slightly -EV.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

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Buck, how much better is 54s compared to a 43s?

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I don't know, good question. Maybe one of the many numbers fanatics running around will tell us. In hindsight, preflop is fine. Your implied odds when playing at this level are huge, as you'll be paid off in spots that don't warrent it.

Edit: I want to add that the flop raise isn't good. Missed that the first time around. You don't want to drive out players, as you're not even raising for value right now. Just call the flop.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

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you people need to rethink your preflop play if you're folding that.

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Hmmm....
I don`t know. There is 3 people still to act. It is definetely not worth limping if there`s a relevant chance somebody raises.
If the button is very passive it`s ok to limp in.
I`d also limp if I had the button.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Just for the record, I'm loving the flop raise.

-AC

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That's too bad, because it kinda sucks.

Preflop is fine. Call the flop. Raise the turn.

Rob

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A flop raise isnt that horrible is it? Theres a good chance button will cold call, and we'll be getting 3:1 on our bet when we have about 33% equity. At worst, button folds, we don't get a free card, and our flop raise was slightly -EV.

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At worst, Button folds, you get 3-bet, UTG+1 folds, you call, and lose everyone else.

"Me have flush draw me raise" is a mantra repeated too often around here, and while overs+flush is often a great draw worthy of raising in a multiway pot, when you've only got one caller and a PFR who bet into 7 people after raising from the SB on a J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] board, 43s ain't too pretty. You're gonna need to hit your flush to win and even then you aren't winning nearly as much as you'd like.

Free card plays are overused on this forum. You need to re-evaluate preflop action, flop action, and the quality of the board before considering plays like this.

Rob

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

FLOP: I'm not too crazy about your raise on the flop when you've only got two probable callers and you might fold the button. Thankfully the Button cold called, making your raise marginally +EV with such a low flush draw.

TURN: Ya, pop it. SB raised preflop so he's probably got high cards, but what are the chances they're both spades? He might have one high spade- charge him to draw now.

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

Perfect. That's all I needed to know, Ent.

-AC

Re: fish donkbets my flush on the turn...was I correct to raise?
 

NateDog:[ QUOTE ]
SSHE says to play em as low as 54s. 34s isn't much of a stretch from the CO with the whole damn table limping.

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Buck_65:[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, the lowest I'd ever go here is 45s. I know 34s is very, very close to that hand, but you could make the argument that 45o is pretty damn close to 45s, so why not run that hand here as well? Soon you'll be playing any 2 with this logic.

[/ QUOTE ]
lautzutao:[ QUOTE ]
Buck, how much better is 54s compared to a 43s? Look, I love SSHE and all, but those guidelines aren't set in stone.

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I wasn't even lying about 4/3 suited being in SSHE. Check the tables again: In a loose game, in late position, play "Same hands that you would play from middle position plus K8s-K2s, Q8s, J8s, J7s, 87s-43s . . ."

I couldn't hardly believe it myself, but it's there.