AKo turn decision
 

I thought this was easy, but then other people thought it was easy the other way. After discussing this with 4 people, we all came to different conclusions for different reasons so from that I concluded this isn't standard.

BB and UTG are passive donks. SB slightly tighter but basically a straight forward donk.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero ...

Re: AKo turn decision
 

I think a bet works here, as the last bet we put in this pot.

We can safely fold to a check-raise, and by continuing the aggression on this scary board we could induce alot of better hands to fold. We also get to see a showdown if things go as planned.

These players strike me as the sort who fold on this turn very frequently. They hung around preflop and on the flop with probably meager holdings, and now the board has gotten so scary that their overcards or mid pair just doesn't look very good to them.

Add into the mix that the pot is 6BB's, and I think there's a good bet here.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

I'd check behind and usually checkfold the river if someone bets. Against 3-other players I don't think A-high will be good often enough.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

Take a free card against 3 players

Re: AKo turn decision
 

I think that betting here is better. i think u get many hands to fold here and by betting and gettign c/r u can safely throw ur hand away right there.

By checking u may induce a bluff somewhere on the river from a worse hand. Making a more tricky situation.

If u checked the turn and hit an A or a K on the river what line would u take then?

Re: AKo turn decision
 

Take the free card.

There are 3 players, betting will not win the pot.

What do you do if check/raised?

A free showdown here is useless.

Try to spike an A or K.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

Considering the stakes, I think this post may belong in the microlimit forum. Anyway...

I agree with the others that checking the turn is the right play. Yes, the 4 was a scare card, but there are still a lot of hands that these players just aren't folding that have you beat. Bad players are good at finding reasons to call you down, so you may even find yourself getting called down by bottom pair.

AK is a great starting hand, but sometimes you just have to give it up.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Take the free card.

There are 3 players, betting will not win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

It might fold a better hand. Any flush draw is hanging around (who we're ahead of right now), but any pair might be folding on this scary board.

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What do you do if check/raised?

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Easy fold.

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A free showdown here is useless.

Try to spike an A or K.

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If they all call the turn bet a free showdown is worth very little, but it's very likely that a number of your opponents will fold this turn.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Take the free card.

There are 3 players, betting will not win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

It might fold a better hand. Any flush draw is hanging around (who we're ahead of right now), but any pair might be folding on this scary board.

[/ QUOTE ]
But they're loose. 1/2 is filled with people who called down every PP regardless of the board.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

First of all it doesnt matter that this is 1/2, I should have edited that out. This could easily be 2/4. You have the reads and the decision to make, the level is irrelevant beyond that.

Secondly I dont read here as much as I should, but reading all the responses in this thread seems like you guys dont think enough. I would rather analyze 1 hand really well once a day than just state what my action would be in 200 hands. This isnt the best hand ever, but I still think there are a lot of things to think about in this. Its not just 'check for the freecard' or whatever. Try and apply this to your game in general with overcards against a large field, not just this one hand.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Try and apply this to your game in general with overcards against a large field, not just this one hand.

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Well, in general, it's right to check behind on the turn when your overcards whiffed and you're still up against a field of 3. But the peculiaralites of this hand makes it so betting is better, IMO.

I agree that we need to stop churning out cookie cutter answers. It's too easy to always check behind these turns where your overcards missed on the flop and turn with 3 opponents. But as I examine the exact particulars of this hand, I'm finding that betting has alot more merit than usual. When you put out one word "check" posts, you're stifling discussion. At least throw one line of explaination.

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather analyze 1 hand really well once a day than just state what my action would be in 200 hands.

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Why not do both? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: AKo turn decision
 

Its true that villains will often be on draw or have wacky overcards, but I just don't think all three of them will not have any pair. I guess I can be persuaded that betting is good here.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Its true that villains will often be on draw or have wacky overcards, but I just don't think all three of them will not have any pair. I guess I can be persuaded that betting is good here.

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I think it's likely that at least one guy has a pair, but I also think it's likely that he'll fold it to a turn bet a good portion of the time. This does depend alot on who the player is and what pair he's holding, but I think all in all you fold a pair here pretty often on the turn.

That's not the only motivation for betting, however. We're looking at a list of reasons: Folding a pair, protection/value from overcards and flush draws, the possibility of seeing a free showdown, and most importantly, the fact that we can fold to a check raise from anyone.

I haven't explained that yet in this thread -- If we get check-raised we can be very, very sure that our 6 outs are no good. I don't think a single pair will check-raise this turn, ever.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

I really do like a bet here. we have position and a lot of draws on the board. By betting if we can get this HU with someone who is on a flush or a nut straight draw that misses, we can take this pot down UI. I do think a bet will clear the field a bit as players at party seem to like to peel with almost anything. this board is also extremely scary for someone who has even middle pair. If we can fold out any hands like this, or a hand that could spike a pair on the river, we haved now benefitted from the bet. a bet can also possibly clean up an ace out as it isn't inconcieveable that someone is holding a hand like A3 or A6.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

Having them fold a pair by betting the turn is good enough reason for me. I like betting the turn then.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
Having them fold a pair by betting the turn is good enough reason for me. I like betting the turn then.

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Not to be cross, but if we couldn't fold to a check-raise, I think betting would be wrong. I think that's a very, very important factor here.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...betting will not win the pot.

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It might fold a better hand..any pair might be folding on this scary board.


[/ QUOTE ]

Slowly step away from the bong. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
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...betting will not win the pot.

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It might fold a better hand..any pair might be folding on this scary board.


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Slowly step away from the bong. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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I really think everyone on these boards underestimates how often people DO fold pairs here. I play my overcards aggressively and I get folds, not all those folds are cards that didn't connect, there are just too many of them. Sometimes fish fold their pairs, and they do it particularly when they percieve that even if they improve they won't win.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

I like checking behind on the turn, with the plan of folding to a river bet unimproved.

Yeah, the board's scary, but it's not as if Hero's opponents will put him on a straight. They'll be thinking overcards or overpair.

If someone folds a pair, he'll be doing so because he's worried someone else just made a straight. And I don't think he'll let this concern him too greatly until someone checkraises. And we have to fold to one of those anyway.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

So just to clarify, you along with the many others who say bet are doing so for folding equity and not because we have the best hand most often? Or you figure that you are good enough here to value bet? I'm guessing you want to win the pot right there so you like to have folding equity but with people this loose passive I dont think we have enough here to bet. I think that we may even have an opportunity for a free showdown even if we dont bet the turn against passive people.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
I thought this was easy, but then other people thought it was easy the other way. After discussing this with 4 people, we all came to different conclusions for different reasons so from that I concluded this isn't standard.

BB and UTG are passive donks. SB slightly tighter but basically a straight forward donk.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero ...

[/ QUOTE ]


BB and UTG are passive donks. SB slightly tighter but basically a straight forward donk.

I think that's all you need to justify a bet in these conditions. However low, they may all fold to you. Also with your passive read, 2/3's of the people in the hand are more likley to call as opposed to raise if they have you beat.

I would bet and fold to any C/R. On the turn I would fold to a bet UI and check the river if checked to.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

I think its both fold equity and value, as odd as that sounds. given your reads, they could have anything, so we could also have the best hand. I think that a bet protects the hand here too,if we can fold out any odd draws and small pairs, then we've done what we needed to do

Easy check
 

You have three loose opponents. They're calling you with pairs, straight draws (real and imagined), flush draws and (most likely) overcards.

The board isn't scary. If you were his opponent would you really believe he'd just checked raised pf with a five in his hand, bet the flop with a gutshot, then spiked it on the turn?

Or would you put him on some combination of 'overcards/pair'?

Re: Easy check
 

[ QUOTE ]
You have three loose opponents. They're calling you with pairs, straight draws (real and imagined), flush draws and (most likely) overcards.

The board isn't scary. If you were his opponent would you really believe he'd just checked raised pf with a five in his hand, bet the flop with a gutshot, then spiked it on the turn?

Or would you put him on some combination of 'overcards/pair'?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think LP's are putting their opponents on hands? They're playing their own cards, and on that board a pair of 6's doesn't look very good.

Re: Easy check
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do you really think LP's are putting their opponents on hands?

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This is a good point. It's been a while since I've frequented SS.

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on that board a pair of 6's doesn't look very good.

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yes, but since when do 1/2 players fold just because they're about to lose. Low limit games are full of people who call down 'just in case'.

Re: Easy check
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Do you really think LP's are putting their opponents on hands?

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This is a good point. It's been a while since I've frequented SS.

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on that board a pair of 6's doesn't look very good.

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yes, but since when do 1/2 players fold just because they're about to lose. Low limit games are full of people who call down 'just in case'.

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I always thought that they're calling when they percieve that they have some chance to suck out. I don't know what the psychological reason is, but it seems that bad players really enjoy taking a weak hand and having it pull ahead of a strong one. Then they get to the river and call one more "just in case".

A perfect example of this is how profitable it is to continue semi-bluffing when the top card pairs:

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (5.5 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>

You will find ALOT of folds from your opponents in this situation. Either that or a check-raise which you can safely fold to (Another example of it being right to bet because you can safely fold to a check-raise).

When the flop comes they think "he probably has a K, but I can get two pair or three of a kind to beat him", but when the turn card comes, they now think "Oh man, he's got 3 kings, I'm done."

The hand Emmit posted is different -- but most fish aren't nuanced enough to realize it. They don't eliminate a 6 from your possible holdings because they're not really using much logic, they're just assuming your strong because you've been betting the whole time, and the easiest hand to put someone on who apears strong on this board is a straight.

There being alot of villians here also helps us because the first guy to act after Hero bets is probably vaugely aware that someone behind him might have a straight. Compound that with the fact that Hero's been pounding on him the entire hand, and he'll probably decide that his pair isn't worth continuing with.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think its both fold equity and value, as odd as that sounds. given your reads, they could have anything, so we could also have the best hand. I think that a bet protects the hand here too,if we can fold out any odd draws and small pairs, then we've done what we needed to do

[/ QUOTE ]

Just quoting this because it's very true.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

I agree with your rationale in this spot. The fact is, if an A or K spikes on the river after you take the free card and someone bets I think you might be obligated to make a crying call.

Remember also ,these players may be donks but they are thinking individuals like the rest of us, they just think on a lower level. If you check through the turn a busted draw may just put you on overcards and push you off what might be the best hand in this situation.

Add in the fact that a bet on the turn may get some players to fold (possible donk thought: "there's no way he can bet on this board without an big pair") as well as defining where you stand in this hand. If you get raised its an easy fold, and if you get called I'm betting you can get a free showdown.

In most cases you're going to be putting in one more bb into this pot, you might as well do it in the spot that gives you the best chance to take the pot.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

Easy check IMO

Re: Easy check
 

I like a continuation bet of AQo on a 36KK board a lot better. In the other hands I think villain is more likely to but us on overcards than the straight.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

On the turn, there are 16 different single cards we're losing to. That's a little over a third of the unknown cards in the deck, and our opponents hold six cards total. If we assigned those six cards randomly, we'd be behind a substantial majority of the time.

Granted, the cards we're worried about are not very popular ones. But three (admittedly very loose) players did find a reason to call us on the flop.

Anyone with a pair quite likely also has top pair, or two pair, or an 8, or a big overcard. I think it's going to be hard to get those hands to fold to a turn bet. Someone with a pair could also have just made a straight. Even someone who just has a pair because his any two suited hit a 3 or 6 on the flop will also have a flush draw at this point some of the time.

No pocket pair will fold, except for maybe 22.

If by some chance we are ahead (and I think we usually won't be), our opponents probably have a lot of outs against us, if we're called.

Sometimes persistent betting pays off, but I just don't think this is the best spot.

Edit: Hmm. The fact that two of our opponents are in the blinds does probably change the nature of the hands we could be up against, somewhat. My guess is that whatever chance we have of folding out a better hand probably went up a little, if that hand is held by someone playing junk versus a raise in the blinds. At the same time, the chances that we're behind do also go up, I think.

And I'm not so sure someone who plays, say, T3o to a raise in the big blind gives up easily when he catches a piece.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

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In most cases you're going to be putting in one more bb into this pot, you might as well do it in the spot that gives you the best chance to take the pot.

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In most cases I would not be putting any more BB's in the pot. (Usually I won't catch an ace or king, and if I'm unimproved on the river and one of my passive opponents decides to bet the river in this 4-way pot, I'll just give him credit for having me beat.)

Re: AKo turn decision
 

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[ QUOTE ]
In most cases you're going to be putting in one more bb into this pot, you might as well do it in the spot that gives you the best chance to take the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

In most cases I would not be putting any more BB's in the pot. (Usually I won't catch an ace or king, and if I'm unimproved on the river and one of my passive opponents decides to bet the river in this 4-way pot, I'll just give him credit for having me beat.)

[/ QUOTE ]


is it not inconcievable that we actually have the best hand here. getting hands to fold here only benefits us, and the only way to get hands to fold here is by betting this

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In most cases you're going to be putting in one more bb into this pot, you might as well do it in the spot that gives you the best chance to take the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

In most cases I would not be putting any more BB's in the pot. (Usually I won't catch an ace or king, and if I'm unimproved on the river and one of my passive opponents decides to bet the river in this 4-way pot, I'll just give him credit for having me beat.)

[/ QUOTE ]


is it not inconcievable that we actually have the best hand here. getting hands to fold here only benefits us, and the only way to get hands to fold here is by betting this

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess if we're up against three players who peel very loosely on the flop (and thus we could be ahead) and then give up on the turn (so even if we aren't ahead, we may drive a better hand out), then a turn bet starts looking more attractive.

I'm curious what some of the experienced Micro-Limit posters would have to say about this hand, since I'm kind of out of touch with what it's like to play at tables like the one in this posted hand.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

two things I would like to comment on

1) I dont think anyone is folding a pair on the turn. maybe if you bet the turn + river then MAYBE, but a turn bet alone will almost never do it.

which leads to...

2) I don't think betting the turn for a free showdown is very valuble against 4 opponents , he'll often have some kind of pair - as you add players because if you get called by even only one of the 4 opponentsto the pot, the odds go up fairly fast that someone hit, and he will always call the turn with it. if you feel the overwhelming need to take down this particular pot, I think you have to fire twice to get him to fold his T3o or 22 or A4o or whatever hand it is that is ahead of you now, and even that is spewy, I think. so I'd rather reserve the right to put bets in when I'm most likely to be ahead (by rivering a K or A)

against 1 opponent, easy bet. against 2, maybe a bet depending on image. against 3 opponents or above, to think that our bet is protecting the best hand here is wishful thinking IMO. we're just holding A high here.

all in all, I think this is a pretty easy check behind

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]

1) I dont think anyone is folding a pair on the turn. maybe if you bet the turn + river then MAYBE, but a turn bet alone will almost never do it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you think that? If this was true, I agree with your assesment, but this is a very large assumption to be making.

I think pairs are folded on this turn very frequently.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

I only say that based on BB and UTG being loose donks which I only assume means loose passive - if that read is wrong then it changes a little

also the BB could have any two here, if these were UTG/MP limpers you'd be more likely to have the best hand I think

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


is it not inconcievable that we actually have the best hand here. getting hands to fold here only benefits us, and the only way to get hands to fold here is by betting this

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess if we're up against three players who peel very loosely on the flop (and thus we could be ahead) and then give up on the turn (so even if we aren't ahead, we may drive a better hand out), then a turn bet starts looking more attractive.

I'm curious what some of the experienced Micro-Limit posters would have to say about this hand, since I'm kind of out of touch with what it's like to play at tables like the one in this posted hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


I haven't played at this limit in a half year myself, but I see players at 3/6 and 5/10 making these types of peels a lot still, and I would be willing to bet that it is even more pervasive at 1/2. I don't think we can fully take down the pot right here, but if we can get this HU, then I like our chances. Hell, I've bet out on the turn w/AK UI and taken down a 10 BB pot with several players in it when everyone folded at 3/6 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], so I don't think that it isn't possible at this limit at all

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't played at this limit in a half year myself, but I see players at 3/6 and 5/10 making these types of peels a lot still, and I would be willing to bet that it is even more pervasive at 1/2. I don't think we can fully take down the pot right here, but if we can get this HU, then I like our chances. Hell, I've bet out on the turn w/AK UI and taken down a 10 BB pot with several players in it when everyone folded at 3/6 [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], so I don't think that it isn't possible at this limit at all

[/ QUOTE ]

I suspect we're more likely to get turn folds at 3/6 than 1/2, really.

Re: AKo turn decision
 

[ QUOTE ]


I suspect we're more likely to get turn folds at 3/6 than 1/2, really.

[/ QUOTE ]

true, but this part can't be ruled out. I think we will get some folds, but I'm not expecting the field to fold. getting it HU I think is the priority