Post your best expert play!
 

It would be interesting to start a discussion about NLHE "expert play" that may throw off your opponents and add some EV to your poker results. I'm aware that some moves might work at some levels but not at others, some work against certain type of players while against some it wont, so please include the overall context. Maybe you can illustrate your maneuvers by posting hands where you actually tried it out.

I don't regard myself as an expert but I will contribute with a few ideas that it would be interesting to hear your comments about.

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

OK I contribute with one myself.

I know a guy who play 10/20 NLHE online and he says one good move is to induce a bluff on the river from an opponent who has called flop and turn with a probable flush draw against your top pair + top kicker or overpair. When you reach the river you just check hoping him to bet behind and then you just call. If you raise you'd only get a call or a reraise by a stronger slowplyed hand. Reflections?

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

Quite expert and very nonstandard indeed.

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

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Quite expert and very nonstandard indeed.

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You forgot to contribute.

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

Seems pretty standard to me. A play I learned recently that's also relatively standard but that a lot of people don't see the value in is the play of overpairs and TPTK on safe boards. Here's an example:

You have A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and raise preflop from position, getting two callers.

The flop is: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

This is a good flop for you. It's checked to you and you fire about pot. One fold, one caller. What's your read?

The best read here is probably a hand like
JQ-AJs, maybe QQ, or maybe even some hand like 66-TT who just doesnt think you have it. Of course, 46 is possible, and importantly, so are hands like JJ, 55, and 22.

The turn comes down: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] And you do what?
Most people here would bet. However, a better play is actually to check, imo. Why? Well, you caller has to have a hand like 46 for you to worry about giving a free card, and betting three streets with a single pair isn't usually a good idea. You want to get two solid bets out of your opponent. If you fire here again, and he raises, you have to strongly consider the possibility that he has 55 or JJ, in which case you're stuck calling not just this bet, but another big on on river. By checking you protect yourself not just from slow-played sets but also from weird two pair type monsters.

Also, with your turn check, on the river your villain might decide to get frisky and make a reasonable bet with a J, a pocket pair that's missed the board, or just some sort of weird bluff, thinking you dont have the goods when you check the turn. You can safely call that bet, and the money you lose to a set or two pair in this situation is much less than if you inflated pot by firing turn.

Finally, a hand like JT or 77 is goign to be much more likely to call a solid river bet then they would be to call your second barrel on the turn, since you showed weakness on the turn by checking. Now they might think you're just making a desperation buy attempt on river with AQ or AK.

The idea, here, is that your turn check allows you to get more value from marginal hands, while at the same time keeping the pot manageable with a hard hand to play postflop, and finally allowing you to lose the least money from flopped monsters like sets or two pair.

You like?

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

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Quite expert and very nonstandard indeed.

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You forgot to contribute.

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Hehe. I don't have any expert plays since I suck.

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

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You like?

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If villain is aggressive and plays a wide range of hands, yes.

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

This is pretty much a standard 2p2 line as far as I know..

I would like to hear a little more about this line from a successful LAG or a TAG who likes to fire two bullets tho. The reason this type of line can sometimes can be bad IMO is if you are playing against a thinking player who is observant of the action and you have played a decent number of hands against him. He will then soon realize that you only bet the turn with two pair or better. The problem with this is if you decide to fire a second bullett with AK or use a turn K as a scarecard and fire a second bullett with something like AQ your opponent knows you are either bluffing or you have a big hand.. Big hands are not common so he may decide to look you up with a single pair...

Is this overthinking at medium stakes or does anyone have thoughts/practice with this "problem"?

A play I sometimes make that doesn't seem like the standard on 2p2 is to bet into the PFR with air after I called in the BB with a SC or high cards. I think this helps balancing your play. You will often pick up the pot and you will be harder to read.
A guy who only bets into the PFR with better than onepair hands shouldn't get alot of action from good players

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

You cant use any play every time agianst thinking players, you're correct abotu that, but I think this is an underused and solid line. and what I especialyl like about it is that you can play monsters the same way. Against a LAG or a TAG, if you flop top set, bet flop, and check turn behind, now when your opponent decides to fire a river bet at you, you can make a solid raise, and if hes made you for air of just an overpair hes going to have to call with hands like two pair and someimtes even to pair. That wouldnt be a standard line, but it becomes more effective when you mix the two instead of three-three street betting line into yoru play. Make sense? Barely coherent i know.

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

Yes, I got you on the don't-use-same-line-against-thinking-player-every-time.

But I don't aggree that it's good mixing up the check behind turn with TPTK with a line you would take with a monster.. You can't stack a guy if you keep the pot small... With one pair you want a medium pot, with a monster you don't. I think it is better to bet more frequently on the turn (with lesser hands) than to check monsters (this is the principle behind LAG play and is what makes them get paid off. I.e a LAG would never check behind a monster..). The guy I was playing against would have to be a complete nit if I should check behind with a monster

edit: Btw, your monster line is not consistent with your TPTK line because you would never raise the river with that.. Also a river raise after a turn checkbehind screems strengt and I dont't think one pair is paying that of more often than a turn + river bet

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

I think I like this play, one good thing about it is that if he has you beaten (two pair or better) he will absolutely bet the river if he has checked the turn (and you checking behind), so you wont fear a check-raise on the river.

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

the "push my stack all-in" play

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

My expert play is to run over my different options for the hand and select the one that, given the situation and opponents, yields the highest profit over time.

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

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My expert play is to run over my different options for the hand and select the one that, given the situation and opponents, yields the highest profit over time.

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damn son, you are cold as ice

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

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I know a guy who play 10/20 NLHE online and he says one good move is to induce a bluff on the river from an opponent who has called flop and turn with a probable flush draw against your top pair + top kicker or overpair. When you reach the river you just check hoping him to bet behind and then you just call. If you raise you'd only get a call or a reraise by a stronger slowplyed hand. Reflections?

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Isn't this pretty normal?

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

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I know a guy who play 10/20 NLHE online and he says one good move is to induce a bluff on the river from an opponent who has called flop and turn with a probable flush draw against your top pair + top kicker or overpair. When you reach the river you just check hoping him to bet behind and then you just call. If you raise you'd only get a call or a reraise by a stronger slowplyed hand. Reflections?

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Isn't this pretty normal?

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Standard river play from theory of poker.

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

I fire two barrels with complete air after raising preflop a lot of the time, so checking behind on the turn with a real hand (top pair+) is rare for me. It makes decisions very difficult when I'm not hitting cards, but I run over the table when I pick up hands.

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

Check this: You've got JJ/TT/99 in MP. You make a standard open raise, or raise after limpers. Button, who is a rather tight/passive player (lets say, 15/3/1), reraises you 3x. All fold, you call.
Flop comes A63 rainbow. You lead for 2/3 pot. He folds his KK/QQ, because you got lucky and hit your ace. Or, he calls/raises his AA, and you get away without investing anymore. You gain EV, and no-one is the wiser.

(or checkraise if you're feeling really ballsy)

(Maybe i shouldnt give out all my secrets)

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

The old continuation bet trick, nice one!

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

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one good move is to induce a bluff on the river from an opponent who has called flop and turn with a probable flush draw against your top pair + top kicker or overpair. When you reach the river you just check hoping him to bet behind and then you just call.

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That is completely standard. A more advanced version is to bet something insulting that they still can't call with a busted draw. They don't want to fold for $20 in a $500 pot, so they feel compelled to make a substantial raise.

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

I believe, although it's rather subjective, that friendly chat allows you to get away with more moves. I'm talking about online, if I can strike up some banter in the chat window, I don't get my bluffs called down so much. I can't offer a scientific proof this is a genuine effect, it just seems to work.

I guess the thinking goes "Gee whizz* such a nice guy wouldn't bluff me" or "Honkerty doddle dandy* I don't want to upset a guy liked by the whole table"

*If they are American

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

I use a move frequently that is not very common to literature and forums. That is if I raise preflop with a hand like 75s and get one caller that I have position on and I flop a flushdraw. Then I mostly check behind instead of semi-bluff cont. bet (except against someone who very often folds on the flop). Especially if the flop contains some high cards.

Very often I get good payed of if I hit the flush because villian will think I should had bet a flushdraw. Also if he checks again on the turn I can make a bet there.

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

I like to do this too. PArtly because I'm annoyed with the "check-to-the-raiser" trend that seems almost like a rule to some people. So if someone wants to check their TP to me, fine, I take the free card.

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

That's standard. The counter to this move is something I might look into doing a bit more against a certain type of players (players like myself, for example). Call flop with a monster in position, call or check behind turn, and make a big bet on the river when it's checked to you and draws missed. Villain (if he is like me) calls with ace high, thinking he's going to look awesome again, but he won't=)

Re: Post your best expert play!
 

I've actually had this happen to me... Guy limps, I raise with AA, he calls. He checkcalls 3/4 on a twoflush flop. He then checks the turn and I bet 2/3 of the pot and he just calls again. The river comes a blank and then he pots it! This was on pokerroom and I have busted so many busted flushes there that I called pretty fast not even raising my eyebrows. I got my cornflakes stuck in my throat when he flipped over a set.

I yelled out ****ing donk at the screen and thought "How can the #¤%#¤% can he checkcall on a twoflushboard with a set when any flushcard will kill his action or have him beat"

Afterwards I couldn't decide if this was a total donk play or if it was a pretty neat move, so I did a little analysis.

(1) Villains doesn't have a read on me and doesn't know I'm a thinking player: He will then win a small to medium sized pot the times the flush comes on the turn or river because AA guy will then slow down and fold to large bets. If the turn or river doesn't bring a flushcard villain will not always be paid off because the other player with AA might not recognize the possibility of a missed FD and he could be scared of the large riverbet (which if most often a good thing).
If he instead had checkraised or bet/bet-threebet the flop most guys are willing to get it allin on the flop with AA or atleast the pot will be big enough to get him potcommitted on the turn.
So against a standard opponent this line is far superior.

(2) Villain has a read on me that I can lay down overpairs and TPTK and he knows I am a thinking player: If villain threebets or checkraises he will often take down the pot against me. I might put my stack in there, but that is not the norm for me. He will then win a small to medium sized pot.
If villain takes the checkcall line a flushcard will counterfit his action 36% of the time and he will only win a small to medium sized pot, and he will in rare cases loose a bigger pot when I have the flush. Also I might check behind on the turn so that his riverbet will be smaller when the river bricks and he bets his set.
But as was the case in the situation I outlined - I "charged" his draw on the turn and called his "missed flusdraw" on the river" - he almost took my stack (I had 1/4-1/3 left). This he could not have accomplished any other way.

Any thoughts on villains line? Does this line have validity against certain opponents or is it too marginal (too many things have to fit together for it to work..) to worry about?