First 2 days of online play
 

First, a bit about me. I, fortunately or unfortunately, hail from the state of Michigan where everyone plays cards and almost everyone plays cards badly. A few months ago I introduced a couple of friends to the game of low blinds, No Limit Hold 'Em (I had been playing it off and on for fun for the past few years). Suddenly, it seemed like everyone I knew either played HE or knew an HE player, and I found myself able to play in multiple home games a week. Right from the start it seemed like I was better than 99% of the people I was playing with. This isn't an ego-rant in any way; I'm definitely aware that beating a home game doesn't make you a good poker player. In the last 3 months, I've managed to walk away losing money only twice. Considering my results, I decided a few weeks ago that perhaps I might take this a bit more seriously.

So off I went to the bookstore to invest some money. I scoured the net as a forum leech soaking up what I could. I subscribed fully to the 300 BB theory of a bankroll and began building it from my home poker winnings. Since I live 2 hours from the nearest casino, I figured the only place I could really put in solid hours was online. After a couple of weeks, I had made about $340 in home poker winnings. I decided to keep $100 to continue playing home poker with. I have never really spent my own money to play poker; my original buy in a few months ago was with spare change around the house (and I'm still playing on the winnings). Anyway, this left me with $240 to hand to ultimatebet.com where I could begin my online poker career.

I had to wait the weekend until my account was fully operational, so I took the time to play as much as possible with the 'play chips' to get used to the interface. I also spent quite a bit of time deciding which style of Hold 'Em I should play. My small bankroll didn't look to be enough to play my typical .25/.50 blind No Limit, so I decided to compromise: I'd play NL small entry fee tournaments and take a stab at playing micro-limit ring games. Unfortunately, the scary thing for me was that I had never, ever, ever played a limit game of Hold 'Em. I figured I was in for a world of hurt. My bankroll didn't quite support the .50/1 game, so I decided to play .25/.50 which would give me some much needed leeway (an extra $90 over the 300 BB's).

So here we go, my account finally became fully live yesterday (Monday) and I jumped into the game with both feet. The first hour I played felt like it might be the best hour I'll ever get playing limit Hold 'Em. Although I played pretty decently (I think), I have to admit that the cards were just falling my way. I had pocket aces twice, along with kings, queens, and jacks once a piece. The game was really passive preflop which allowed me to check in from the BB numerous times with rags. On 3 occasions, the flop clobbered me with two pair and I was able to take down sizeable pots. At the end of the hour, I was 20 BB's up. All good things must come to an end, however, and they sure did on the second hour of play. I didn't get many good starting hands, and I definitely made a few playing errors that cost me some bets. I decided to call it a day after the second hour while I was 13 BB's to the sky.

So, now we move on to today. I woke up, grabbed some coffee and decided it was time to continue my poker trek. If the first hour of play yesterday was everything I had ever hoped for, the opposite could be said for the first hour today. Let's just say that I got absolutely owned. In the first 50 or 60 hands I didn't win a single pot. I folded preflop just about every hand with a myriad of rotten cards. I limped in with small pocket pairs in late position 3 times and caught my set on the flop everytime. Unfortunately, I managed to lose every single pot even armed with my trips. It was horrible; I'm sure I'll have nightmares about it for weeks to come. I took a break and found that I had lost 26 BB's in a single hour, which meant that I was now 13 BB's down. After lunch, I sucked it up, and played for another hour. Although I didn't win any BB's by the end of the hour, I didn't lose any either. I ended the hour exactly in the same spot as I had began it: 13 BB's down. So that's where I'm at now, it's been quite a learning experience already, and I'm looking forward to the rest of my online career.

Here's a quick hand that happened during the second hour of play today. It didn't feel right the way I played it, and so I humbly ask you guys to show me the light and give me some tips on how to play it better:

Ultimate Bet 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.40 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, BB folds, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.20 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.20 BB

I played this marginal hand with the intention of either a) flopping two pair or a flush draw, or b) folding after the flop. I won't play this generally if an ace flops and there is any action as I figure to be outkicked most of the time. I admit I was baffled as to what MP2 had in his hand when he raised me on the flop. He was new to the table so I had no idea of what type of player he was. I couldn't figure him for an overpair since he didn't raise preflop. He could of limped in with a small pocket pair (including an 8 or 6, giving him the set). He could've had overcards, such as K-J or Q-J. I didn't think he'd have middle pair, since I couldn't imagine him raising the flop with such a hand. Anyway, since I was overly confused, I merely decided to check-call all the way to the river. I played this extremely passively, I know, but it seemed like a good plan at the time [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

Welcome to the Forum. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Slow down, take it easy on that bankroll.

How do you find Ultimate Bet to be? Seems like a tough starting venue. There might be softer games out there to consider. Can you say Party Poker?

As a means to that end, get a Neteller account, and try a few different sites. Poker Stars also has .25/.50 and Paradise offers .05/.10. Take advantage of a few sign-up bonuses while you're at it.

You should plan on spending a big share of your time reading this forum (especially the archives), and pick up a couple of the books that people refer to. Yes, you can use your bankroll for the books. It will pay.

Get the Poker Tracker demo.

I'm not the greatest hand analyzer, but I think an important question that's often overlooked is:

What hand(s) did you figure MP2 could be playing? Lots of people jump to the obvious hands, but they forgot about the other hands that don't necessarily mean doom.

My guess comes from:

http://www.posev.com/poker/holdem/st...lop-abdul.html

Abdul puts MP2 at 55/T9s/QJ. That's probably giving him a lot of credit. Re-raising the flop is playing pretty fast, so he most likely had some kind of made hand. High cards would have faded fast, so I'm guessing a pair. With that many hits in the middle pair range, I would be worried about a set.

Good Luck.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

I played this marginal hand with the intention of either a) flopping two pair or a flush draw, or b) folding after the flop. I won't play this generally if an ace flops and there is any action as I figure to be outkicked most of the time. I admit I was baffled as to what MP2 had in his hand when he raised me on the flop.

Flopping top pair with A-10 and folding on the flop is way too tight if there was no raising pre-flop.

As for your opponent's raise, it could be a lot of things, but most of them are not as good as what you have. You are likely ahead here and should 3 bet.

Good luck with the whole on-line poker thing.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

UB is pretty tough for someone just starting out. That's not such a bad thing though.
ATs is hardly a marginal holding, this is a limit game, not NL. In fact consider raising preflop at tables that are less than tough such as what this one probably was. ATs is a strong hand-always play it if the pot has not yet been raised, and expect to have the best hand on an ace or ten high flop just about all of the time.
Definately 3-bet this flop, you will usually have the best hand here.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

Hey welcome to our world. Hope you have a blast.

The hand you posted is a tricky little hand. There aren't a whole lot of rational hands for the guy to raise with on the flop that you beat. Having said that this isn't a level where people are very rational.

I'm slow to put people on sets, they just aren't common enough. So fine, if somebody hits a set they can take some money out of me. I'd be most worried about an overpair. You'll find a lot of players won't raise preflop with jacks or even queens. But most likely this guy has some kind of ten and if he does you have him crushed. Or he may be makeing some kind of play at you. So I like a three bet on the flop.

However the way you played it isn't bad, if you have him beat you probably get the most out of him while losing the least if he has you beat.

Figure it this way, suppose he has, I dunno, A-8. If you three bet the flop and he calls and you lead the turn, there's some chance he'll pack it in. But by just calling and then check calling the rest of the way now you've given him the opportunity to bet at you on every street.

Suppose on the other hand he has a set. You three bet and he either caps it here or just calls and C/R's you on the turn. And your TpTK is hard to get away from.

But I still like three betting the flop.
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

--Zetack

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]
and expect to have the best hand on an ace or ten high flop just about all of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well lets not go nuts now. That's putting it pretty strongly. With an ace high flop I'd be cautiously optimistic that its the best hand. But, aces with a ten kicker is a hand that I think should be backed off pretty quickly when you run into much resistance.

--Zetack

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

Thanks for the replies. I was under the impression that 3 betting the flop was the stronger play; however, as I said, I just couldn't put him on anything with his raise and therefore got a bit frazzled. As for the results of the hand:

River: (6.20 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.20 BB

Results below:
Hero shows Tc Ac (two pair, tens and eights).
MP2 shows 9c Ks (two pair, nines and eights).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.20 BB.

As you can see, he apparently raised me on the flop with a gutshot straight draw. Ah well, rationality is not at its highest level on the low limit HE tables.

It is true that UB is probably not the best place for me to win. However, I don't mind at all losing money as long as I'm improving my play. UB seems to have better players than a lot of places and so that's where I chose to play [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

I played a bit more tonight, and had more dismal results. I think my biggest leak is that I'm a bit too aggressive when I have a piece of the action. Although I stick to what would be considered good starting hands at the low limit level, I find that I have a tough time getting away from them when I flop things such as TPTK. In short, I'm losing more on the hands I lose than I am winning on those I win. Ah well, I need to beat the NL out of me while playing limit.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

Well, as far as I consider it, A-10 might be one of my top marginal hands, but it's still marginal. I wouldn't just fold it because someone bets when an A falls on the flop, but I'd be willing to throw it away if any more action is evident. I guess I'd like to think that hands such as AA, AK, and AQ will generate preflop action (although, I'm certainly living in a fantasy world) so I consider my main worry A-J in such a situation.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure I'll have nightmares about it for weeks to come.

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Don't. It always sucks to not be able to consistently drag pots but it's a routine dry spell that happens to everyone.

Recently, I dropped 90 BBs in 3,000 hands and didn't get back to even for another 2,500. It sounds like you're playing a few hundred hands a day, so a streak like this would really screw with your nightmares if you're not prepared for it [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, I don't mind at all losing money as long as I'm improving my play. UB seems to have better players than a lot of places and so that's where I chose to play

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You need to get over yourself. Quickly. Please tell me you're not serious about this comment.

The goal in this game is to win money. Period, end of discussion. If you're playing for any other reason, you should just quit, or better yet, write us all a check.

Why you would want to play against better players to satisfy some belief (and a false one at that) when you can hammer the fish that are just as numerous in the poker world as there is in the aquatic world.

I'm not interested in being able to hang at a table with 8 tight-aggressive players. In fact, that's the last table I would want to be at. And anyone who seeks such tables should have their heads checked.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, I don't mind at all losing money as long as I'm improving my play. UB seems to have better players than a lot of places and so that's where I chose to play

[/ QUOTE ]

SoCalPat speaks the truth. Intentionally seeking out the toughest game your can afford is a little strange.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]
You need to get over yourself. Quickly. Please tell me you're not serious about this comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see no where in the statement of mine you quoted where I say anything even remotely egotistical. I could be wrong, but stating that I'm willing to lose a little money to improve my overall playing doesn't sound the least bit self gratifying.

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The goal in this game is to win money. Period, end of discussion. If you're playing for any other reason, you should just quit, or better yet, write us all a check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed I need to get over myself. If money was all that concerned me I'd stick to the multitude of home games in my area that I have no trouble beating. My goal was to become a better overall hold 'em player, and thus far, I believe I'm accomplishing that (even though I'm losing money).

I'll try stating this again: my goal is to improve my poker playing. There was a time that I played a lot of chess. Now, as I'm sure you know, the goal of chess is to win. However, playing against people you can routinely beat won't improve your playing as much as playing against those better than you. So, I could of hung out eating those lesser than me in the game alive, or I could seek out tougher and stronger competition and improve my game by leaps and bounds. I agree this is a different situation as no money was on the line. However, I'll glady take some beatings at a lower limit table with the hopes of becoming a good enough player to 'hammer the fish' at a higher limit table in the future. You're right, poker is all about the money, but without the knowledge of how to play, one can't be expected to make it.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

I understand where you're coming from. It's necessary to push yourself if you're going to improve, and the thinking behind your choice of sites is fairly common. However, I think there's more to it than just seeking out good competition. You need to learn to beat the sort of players that are going to make you money. The loose players at the table make you money at all but the highest levels. They might get better as you go up, but it's still the "out to have fun and play a little cards" types that are going to finance your career... as you've probably already found out.

Before I started out playing more seriously, I read an article Mike Caro wrote on this subject. He talked about how he would go after the 'tough' games against good players when he was younger for the same reasons you mentioned, and how he now realizes what a mistake it was. He points out that he could have made much more money in games he could beat, and concludes that the education he got from the good games wasn't enough to make up for what he lost out on.

Look for the softest tables you can find at the limit you're playing. At the same time, read and post as much as you can. If you're after a tough game, sit at the weekly .5/1 2+2 table. You'll find more good players there than you'll stumble across at any of the micro tables at any site, with the added benefit of being able to talk about the hands that you've played with the people you're playing against. I've watched it quite a bit, and as soon as I can afford to drop a few bucks I'll be sitting down there for sure.

The more I play, the more I'm beginning to realize that the best skill you can learn in poker is how to make money, and I think that's all that people were trying to say.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

I agree with almost everything that you had to say. It's not so much that I'm after the 'tough' game, I'm just looking to learn what I can. I'm not going to hang out week after week losing money; if I don't improve my playing to a level where I can at least break even I certainly will move venues.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]
There was a time that I played a lot of chess. Now, as I'm sure you know, the goal of chess is to win. However, playing against people you can routinely beat won't improve your playing as much as playing against those better than you. So, I could of hung out eating those lesser than me in the game alive, or I could seek out tougher and stronger competition and improve my game by leaps and bounds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know exactly of what you speak. The same can be said about myself and basketball. I'd go into the inner-city to play pickup games because I knew it would make me a better player when it came to my games against pasty-white surburban high school teams.

Poker, however, is different. You come to sites like 2+2 to improve your game. I never sit down at a table with the first objective being "learning lessons." Any time spent at the tables should be done so with only one goal in mind: maximizing profit.

Pardon me for coming across as harsh. But make no mistake about it -- your original post said you would sacrifice winnings for improvement and gave the impression that your game was above earning money. It was just wrong on so many levels, I had to respond in the manner I did.

Another tidbit as to why you're initially losing money: You played that suited AT as weak-tight as it could be played, and your mindset ("I'm flopping two pair or a flush draw, or I'm outta here) is weak-tight. For micros, anyway.

That might be the proper mindset at a 30/60 game. Not at micros. You're killing yourself and your profits if you're unable to distinguish between the two and play accordingly. ATs, given the pure junk people will play at micros, is a monster. You got the flop you wanted. Play it accordingly.

Good luck.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Figure it this way, suppose he has, I dunno, A-8. If you three bet the flop and he calls and you lead the turn, there's some chance he'll pack it in. But by just calling and then check calling the rest of the way now you've given him the opportunity to bet at you on every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

And hit his trips on the river!!! Life is grand. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

I usually raise ATs pf if no one ahead of me has raised. ATo is marginal, ATs is much better. Also, ATs is probably a much better limit hand than NL hand, at least against decent NL players.

Also, many people assume that AT, AJ type hands are not that strong just because if you flop an Ace you may be outkicked. This is true but not really that common at all, especially with no pf raise. A bigger issue with these hands is that you have less of a chance to flop top pair. You can catch a T or J and still have to worry about overcards. But in general folding a pair of aces just because you're worried that the T kicker may not be good is a bad idea.

A T-high flop is very good for you. You flopped TPTK and need to be more aggressive with it. Either 3-bet the flop and lead the turn or at the very least call the flop and lead the turn. I would prefer the former, especially since you limped pf.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

Agreed, I did play that hand way too passively which is why I posted it here. If I had thought I played the hand perfectly, I wouldn't have posted it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. Thanks for the advice.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

As has been said... 3 bet the flop, then bet out on the turn. If you are raised again, then call and check call the river. Very doubtful someone has a 97, so you should be ahead. On the turn, your bet after showing strength will tell you if the opponent has the 7 or not because he should raise if he has a 7. You still should call down even if you are raised because some people at the lower limits will bluff at boards like this where a single card is needed to win.

As for the rest of this thread... I admire your willingness to learn by losing, but I don't consider that a viable plan of action. The best things you can do to improve your game are: a) Read here often... a LOT of good advice and good people are here. b) Read books, as you already are doing. I recommend Lee Jones' Winning Low Limit Hold 'em, Phil Helmuth's Play Poker Like the Pros, and Sklansky's Hold Em Poker. Once you have mastered some of the things in those books, you can move on to Sklansky's Hold Em Poker for Advanced Players. c) Move up in limits by making money off softer games. Getting into the game and getting a better feel against softer games will help you a lot more in the long run than getting kicked by better players. The reason is you will more easily find the holes in your game against weaker players, than you will against stronger players. It doesn't hurt that your chances are better to continue to learn with other people's money [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Figure it this way, suppose he has, I dunno, A-8. If you three bet the flop and he calls and you lead the turn, there's some chance he'll pack it in. But by just calling and then check calling the rest of the way now you've given him the opportunity to bet at you on every street.

[/ QUOTE ]

And hit his trips on the river!!! Life is grand. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep...but of all the things an oppenent can do that I don't like, betting into me when he has two outs, ain't one of em.

--Zetack

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]
ATo is marginal, ATs is much better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure but if ATo is marginal, then how good is ATs when you get an A-To kind of flop? That is, you make a pair rather than a flush?

--Zetack

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

I agree Lee Jones's book is great, despite some minor flaws pointed out on these forums. I haven't read Helmuth's book, but rarely have I seen a piece of work as pilloried. If so many posters think its a load of crap, I'd be careful using it as a guide. As far as HPFAP...I'm not sure its a great thing for a new player to muddle their thinking with its sophisticated, contradictory, and often inaplicable to micro limits advice.

Just my 2c.

--Zetack

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sure but if ATo is marginal, then how good is ATs when you get an A-To kind of flop? That is, you make a pair rather than a flush?


[/ QUOTE ]
On a T-8-6 rainbow board as this was it is very good. On an Ace high board it will often still be the best hand. On a K-T-9 board with a possible flush then it's not so great. I don't understand what you're getting at. If your implying that having them suited matters very little in a typical loose low limit game I think you are way off. Some of the biggest pots you will win are with these exact hands when you catch the flush. My point about the NL comparison is that good NL players will not let you have the odds to chase the flush and may get tricky with an AK type hand to trap you. This is not much of a concern in limit play.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]
My point about the NL comparison is that good NL players will not let you have the odds to chase the flush and may get tricky with an AK type hand to trap you. This is not much of a concern in limit play.

[/ QUOTE ]

In my NL experience this is right on the money. Which is why I seem to be having such a difficult time adjusting to limit style play. I'm rather used to winning easily with TPTK and therefore have been playing them very aggressively through all streets. On UB, it seems that people are quite passive and therefore aren't reraising when I have TPTK even if they have a set or 2 pair. Because I'm not shown to have the inferior hand, I am betting out through the turn and river and losing the majority of the time. They won't stay in, however, if the flop misses them, and so I find a lot of people folding on the flop to my raises/bets. Hence, as I said earlier, I seem to be losing way more money when I lose than I am winning when I win. Ho hum, what to do, what to do? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I agree Lee Jones's book is great, despite some minor flaws pointed out on these forums. I haven't read Helmuth's book, but rarely have I seen a piece of work as pilloried. If so many posters think its a load of crap, I'd be careful using it as a guide. As far as HPFAP...I'm not sure its a great thing for a new player to muddle their thinking with its sophisticated, contradictory, and often inaplicable to micro limits advice.

Just my 2c.

--Zetack

[/ QUOTE ]

Phil's book, as a whole, is not very good and you can buy Hold Em Poker by Sklansky (not to be confused with HEPFAP), and get much better and more useful technical information. However, there are things in Phil's book that I found useful, which is why I recommend it. Specifically, reading players (his categorization of player types into animal types really helped me learn to read players better), and discussion of proper tight play make the book worth buying.

I recommend Sklansky AFTER Phil so that Sklansky can clear up a lot of issues Phil messes up or doesn't explain properly.

So, I think it is a good natural progression to go from Lee Jones, who gives a lot of good basic information and sets up a solid foundation, although offers a weak/loose approach, to Phil who helps with reading players and a tighter approach, to Sklansky, who offers up more calculations, information, and a better tight/aggressive approach.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

I have most of the books mentioned and I did in fact start out with Lee Jones's book and then moved on to Phil's book (I grabbed an ebook version for a few dollars and figured 'meh, why not?').

Anyway, I believe that my previous statement about being willing to lose money was taken a bit too far. I won't hang out day after day losing money; I am fully aware that poker is about making money. However, spending my first few days learning from other, better, players while finding out where my limit skill lies isn't really bothering me. Of course, it probably helps that while I'm losing money on my limit play, I'm winning money on my NL play and therefore breaking even (roughly) between the two.

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sure but if ATo is marginal, then how good is ATs when you get an A-To kind of flop? That is, you make a pair rather than a flush?


[/ QUOTE ]


I don't understand what you're getting at. If your implying that having them suited matters very little in a typical loose low limit game I think you are way off. Some of the biggest pots you will win are with these exact hands when you catch the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see anybody critisizing his PF play, just his postflop. PF ATs is better than ATo obviously. However, post flop when you pair but don't make the flush or draw, you essentially have A-To.

If A-10o is marginal why? Isn't it because if you pair the aces you could be outkicked and if you pair the tens you worry about overcards and if no overcards fall then the bunching under makes you worry about straights? A-Ts is in the same boat on this flop. You do have the extra equity here of a possible runner runner flush (although you lose that on the turn) but otherwise its the same as A-10 off.

That said, this is a good flop for A-10 and should be played aggressively on the flop.

I see a lot of writing that explicitly says, or at least implies that a suited hand is a lot stronger than the unsuited version of that hand. Thats true pre-flop, but its only true postflop if you catch you flush or draw. Once you miss the flush, your hand is no better than the unsuited version.

--Zetack

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

I didn't raise preflop due to my position. I don't feel A-10s is a good enough hand for early position raises. Perrhaps I'm wrong.

That being said, if I had been in later position facing a bet with this flop, I'd have certainly raised. However, after betting out in early position, and facing a raise, it stopped me cold (which I admit, it shouldn't have).

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, I believe that my previous statement about being willing to lose money was taken a bit too far. I won't hang out day after day losing money; I am fully aware that poker is about making money. However, spending my first few days learning from other, better, players while finding out where my limit skill lies isn't really bothering me. Of course, it probably helps that while I'm losing money on my limit play, I'm winning money on my NL play and therefore breaking even (roughly) between the two.

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Hey I'm fine with that approach. When somebody said something to the effect of: its all about the money, well at .25/.50 the money is essentially meaningless except as a way to keep score. Playing in games that you think help you to learn probably has as much value as playing in a different game where you might score four or five extra bucks but learn less.

Of course, I'm not sure that the "tougher" micro games necessarily help you to learn any more than the "easier" ones. Sure they might be tight and harder to squeeze money out of, but are they likely tight in the same way as a tight 3/6 game? Or is it just a different type of micro idiocy?

Also, to whoever suggested that the weekly 2+2 micro games give you the good player experience I just have to laugh. I suspect you'll rarely, if ever, see another game that plays like that one, so where's the learning experience there?

--Zetack

Re: First 2 days of online play
 

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If A-10o is marginal why? Isn't it because if you pair the aces you could be outkicked and if you pair the tens you worry about overcards and if no overcards fall then the bunching under makes you worry about straights?

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Sounds about right.

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I see a lot of writing that explicitly says, or at least implies that a suited hand is a lot stronger than the unsuited version of that hand. Thats true pre-flop, but its only true postflop if you catch you flush or draw. Once you miss the flush, your hand is no better than the unsuited version.


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Yes, but either is very strong with this flop. And I still fail to see your point. You often miss the flop with many strong starting hands. You sometimes hit the flop and win. You hit more flops and win more pots if they are suited. But yes if you miss the flush then it no longer matters.

If I somehow knew the flop would come 10 high I would raise pf with either every time as either is then a very strong holding.

Sorry if it appears I'm being argumentative but I'm just not sure if you are saying ATs is not that good of a hand or that being suited doesn't really matter or something else that I'm just too dense to see.

Edit: After rereading the posts I'm assuming you're saying ATs isn't strong enough to raise with in EP. I think it is but agree that limping isn't horrible. I think it would be a huge mistake, however, to not raise it in late position if there has been no raise yet.