Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

I don't know if you guys read the weekly email news letter things that fulltilt sends out. Sometimes they are mildly insightful, other times they are useless. But this week was oh so special... Dated october 17th.

Some "pro" named Perry Friedman writes as follows:

"You are in the big blind with Ts-8s against a player who smooth-called pre-flop. The flop comes K-X-X with two spades. What do you do?

You would like to make your flush, and you don't want to pay too much to get there. Instinctively, you think checking is the best way to get a free card, and you're right. In fact, checking is the only way to get a free card, but it may not give you the best opportunity to make your hand, nor will it pay you maximum value when you make the flush.

Suppose you opponent bets the pot. Now you're getting 2-1 to call for a 4-1 chance of making your hand. You don't even get to see the turn card. You've been priced out.

What happens if you lead out with a small bet? If you're against a player who likes to slow play or a player who will bluff you out with a big bet, a small bet gives you the best chance of seeing the turn.

How small is a small bet? Try betting between 1/3 and 1/4 of the pot. If there is $300 in the pot and you bet $100, you are now getting the right price to make your flush. If you bet $75, you are now getting better than pot odds, and this doesn't account for your implied odds, which take into account the amount of money your opponent will bet or call on the turn and river. If you make your flush on the turn, and your opponent is willing to call your $400 bet, you are getting implied odds of $300 (current pot size on the flop) + $400 (expected amount your opponent will call on the turn) = $700 to $100 (your bet on the flop), or
7-1. "

I can't remember the last time a donk bet like this wasnt raised by any player. His comment about the implied odds makes no sense. Why are we assuming the player will call bets when the flush hits? If he is, that means he probably has a hand, like top pair, in which case he will definitely raise you on the flop anyway. Not to mention he doesn't take into account the possibility of being raised at all, which is what almost always happens when you donkbet into a PF raiser. If the player is likely to make a pot sized C-bet with any 2, then what makes this guy think he wont raise a donk bet with the same 2 cards? I think this is a very stupid way of thinking of the situation. And not to mention, in the scenario he mentioned, the player smoothcalled, and I think we are assuming its a heads up pot since he mentioned no other players entering the pot. So lets say blinds are 25/50. The limp preflop is 50, the sb and your bb is 75, so 125 in the pot. How can you possibly bet 1/4th of the pot? The minimum bet is 50, so thats already 2/5ths, and his advice is actually impossible to follow.

Oh but it gets better...

"In a tournament, this type of drawing strategy can become a riskier and less profitable play, especially early on. Because you start with a limited number of chips in tournament play, your odds need to be closer to 5-1 or even 6-1 before you should consider risking them on a draw, and potentially leaving yourself short stacked."

So apparently pot odds don't apply in tournaments. This advice makes no sense at all. Since when have you ever gotten 6-1 on a draw? Say the blinds are 25/50, your opponent raises to 150, you call in the bb. There is 325 in the pot. If you want to get 6-1 on your draw you have to bet like 65 into the pot of 325, which is basically a min-bet. I can think of no worse a play to make. Your opponent would have to be incredibly passive for this to work. And if hes that passive, why not just check, because he probably will check behind anyway. Not to mention we are talking about limped pots, and you can't bet 1/4th or 1/5th of the pot if its less than the min-bet. This advice made me want to puke. This is practically advising you to play with your cards face up. Perry Friedman, shame on you.

Please respond, I want this bumped many times.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

There are often donk bets that are left unraised by other donks. I know it's macho to post that "I raise every time I sense weakness, ALWAYS!!!" but not everybody plays like that.

I certainly don't go around advising people to make donk bets, but this is hardly the worst poker advice of all time.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

Look, do you want to learn to play like the Pros or not??? This might even be too obvious to go in Betgo's guide, but hey, it is supposed to be for beginners, so I'd recommend to Betgo to possibly add this in.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

Lets see, he has been to WSOP final tables and you haven't. Now who's advice should we take.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

Their inability to figure out that they are recommending an impossible strategy is ok, but I think the weak lead can be ok if you do it alot. Note that you must also do it when you flop a big hand so a min-bet from you sets off some alarm bells. I remember Negraneu wrote an article (in Cardplayer I think) in defense of the weak lead, but the point of the article was that it was most effective if: a) you play alot of hands and b) you make this lead with both draws and big hands.

Making a weak lead every time you want to see a cheap card is going to be picked up on pretty quickly by a good player.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

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Lets see, he has been to WSOP final tables and you haven't. Now who's advice should we take.

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This is a non-starter of an argument. Robert Varkoni has been the winner of the WSOP. I promise there are 100 posters here who are better tournament players than him.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

"Hi! I've been reged on this site for 7 months. For my second post in that time, I'd just like to say, "YOU'RE AN IDIOT!" Thanks! That's all."

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Their inability to figure out that they are recommending an impossible strategy is ok, but I think the weak lead can be ok if you do it alot. Note that you must also do it when you flop a big hand so a min-bet from you sets off some alarm bells. I remember Negraneu wrote an article (in Cardplayer I think) in defense of the weak lead, but the point of the article was that it was most effective if: a) you play alot of hands and b) you make this lead with both draws and big hands.

Making a weak lead every time you want to see a cheap card is going to be picked up on pretty quickly by a good player.

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nice analysis.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Lets see, he has been to WSOP final tables and you haven't. Now who's advice should we take.

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You're a tool. Did you address any actual poker content referred to? No.

Suppose Erick Lindgren came and said he was wrong. We should listen to him obviously since he's even better than Friedman. Oh wait, but what if Negreanu came afterwards and said that Friedman was right? Oh we should listen to him because hes better than all of them. Do you see the point im trying to get at?

I never attacked Friedmans poker skills, I attacked his advice, which is horrible. Just being a better player than someone does make you right automatically in a dispute.

People on this forum trash TJ Cloutiers book all the time because it gives horrible advice that TJ himself doesn't even follow. Is it because we all think we are better players than him? I'm sure no one does.

OH! And nevermind the fact that part of the advice he advocates is IMPOSSIBLE to follow, because you can't bet less than the minimum.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

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Lets see, he has been to WSOP final tables and you haven't. Now who's advice should we take.

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Then Danny Nguyen must be the end all be all of tournament advice huh?

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

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Then Danny Nguyen must be the end all be all of tournament advice huh?

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Haha...I busted Danny Nguyen today in the second hour of today's rebuy (Bay 101 $50+$20 R/A). He bet allin to my flopped straight with bottom pair. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

since when is smooth calling refering to limping? doenst that mean just calling a bet?


but anyway, i don't hate the advicee, a bet of 100 into a 300 pot definitely does not always get raised, vs 1 opponent it'll take the pot down a decent amount of the time.

I typically bet more like 1/2 the pot, but 1/3 would work too.

That 2nd peice of advice is retarded, i don't know what the hell he's talking about.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

I do the "weak lead" too, its just for different reasons. The way he reasons this play just makes no sense. Your reasoning for making a donk bet has to make sense, not just because "you want a cheap draw." Ill sometimes donk bet with a set, sometimes with a draw, sometimes with air- it depends on the opponent. But to just say "you want a cheap draw, so bet the amount that you can draw too for the right price" is absolutely retarded. It's like he completely ignores the fact that your opponent will raise this a reasonable % of the time. And his logic for the implied odds are faulty as I explained in the OP.

I feel like I have been misunderstood a little. Obviously I dont think this is the worst advice ever, its an exagerration. My problems with this advice is:

1) It discounts the probability that your opponent will raise.

2) If you just play draws like this, why not play faceup. This play is very readable.

3) His specific advice is actually impossible to follow. The fact that an email sent out to every single player on fulltilt would not be read to make sure its following the conventions of the rules of poker, is dumb.

4) His advice on tournaments makes no sense. When was the last time you got 6-1 on a draw? Do the rules of pot odds not apply to tournaments?

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

My god, get off your high horse. He obviously knows the right play, and he obviously did not mean this is the best play to do in this scenario everytime. You are having a pussy attack for no reason.

He was confined to audience members of below average skills, probably also confined by the length of his advice too. He suggested this as an ALTERNATE way to play it, probably better than they would play it themselves. They'd push all in everytime and lose horribly most of the time. He can't go onto advanced concepts like bluffing on the turn, reraising all in, etc. His play could also work.

So please get off your high horse. Sorry you're too good for him. Go play him $5000000 heads up. You'll win for sure.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

[ QUOTE ]
My god, get off your high horse.

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Does proposing that a 'name' pro on FullTilt gives advice according to the rules of poker put me on a high horse?

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He obviously knows the right play, and he obviously did not mean this is the best play to do in this scenario everytime.

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He made no indication in what spot to make this play, and in fact, he probably suggests it against the wrong player. He says if the player is likely to bet strong on a bluff, then this is the sure way to see a cheap turn card. One thing contradicts the other. If he is likely to make a big C-Bet with air, he is also likely to do the same to a probe bet.

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You are having a pussy attack for no reason.


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I very clearly explained my reasons.

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He was confined to audience members of below average skills,

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So when dealing with bad players, give them bad advice? How about suggesting something creative like check raising? It is way harder on the opponent if he has ace high and you check raise him, rather than if he is facing a probe bet.

[ QUOTE ]
He suggested this as an ALTERNATE way to play it, probably better than they would play it themselves. They'd push all in everytime and lose horribly most of the time.

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Who is "they" and who says "they" are pushing all in? I don't fully understand this sentence.

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Go play him $5000000 heads up. You'll win for sure.

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What is it with people and just saying "well if you think he's wrong play him heads up." WTF is that? I guess you arent allowed to critisize people who are better than you, because their word is gospel.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

I'll have to add a link to this to my guide.

The whole attitude is strange. You are in the BB against a limper. Why assume the limper has something? The article is about getting to make your draw cheaply. It's like you are making this limper an authority figure and giving him credit for an overpair.

Your are probably either a slight favorite or a slight dog. If you are ahead with jack high, you are a big favorite.

This is a hand that can be played aggressively. I would probably lead out with a 3/4 pot bet or checkraise. You could also check/call.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

Maybe I'm a donk because I like his tips, if I got that flush draw I would also lead out in the big blind.

I agree with his draws early in a tournament strategy, ( he meant online not like the main event or something)

I can't tell you how many times I chase a draw early with the " right odds" and find myself 2/3 of the time with half my stack gone needing to double up just to get back to even.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

* Leading out is fine, but should be a real bet, not 1/3 or less. (Well not 'should' but i think a bigger lead out is better)

* If chasing the draw costs you half your stack, clearly it's not worth it, you hav eto pick your spots and know which draws are worth chasing. And it doesnt require 6:1 odds.

Re: Oh my god, FullTilt tips from the pros is the worst advice ever.
 

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I can't tell you how many times I chase a draw early with the " right odds" and find myself 2/3 of the time with half my stack gone needing to double up just to get back to even.

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Clearly you are doing something wrong. Describe the hand. If you are getting the correct odds, but it costs a significant portion of your stack, a semi bluff might be in order... I havent ever called down getting 3-1 on every street, and found myself crippled at the end of the hand when i miss, so I really don't know what you mean.