Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

Online I average 400 hands per hour at 3 to four tables short handed, usually heads up to four people. At a casino you play about 40 hands an hour and its hard to find a shorthanded game.
I would say playing an hour shorthanded is atleast 3x more valuable then playing an hour full handed.
So by my rudimentary calculations an hour online is about 10 x 3 = 30 more valuable then playing at a casino.

And to pile on to these numbers, the competition online is much stronger, b/c they are also gaining experience at an accelerated rate.

So, I can confidently say I would take a player who has been an online pro for a year, over a casino pro who has been playing 20 years of his life.

Thoughts?

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

Take them in terms of expecting them to make more, or being better players? The online player is certainly earning far more at comparable levels, but multitabling leads to more mistakes than a single live session, so if we were comparing tbe quality of poker being played I'd assume that, in general, a good live player would outperform a comparable multi-tabler at least looking at their sessions in comparison.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

If the live player is a tyrannosaur, online guy doesn't stand a chance.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

Generally true, except for a couple of things:

The best casino pros tend to play many games well, whereas the best online pros are one-dimensional.

Playing live, the casino pro would notice tells and reads that the online pro would not be aware of and may be giving out himself.

In general, casino games are much softer than online games and the pro there can focus completely on the one game. His edge is much bigger and hence any downswings are also much smaller.

Online pros talk about trying to win 1bb/100 at the 100/200 games. That would translate into about 0.40BB/hour live. A good casino pro should be able to make 3 to 4 times that playing 200/400 (or even higher) mixed games.

In general, I think the best holdem players today are online, but not true of other games.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

Casino pros will be around longer (forever) than the internet poker boom (years).

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

"So, I can confidently say I would take a player who has been an online pro for a year, over a casino pro who has been playing 20 years of his life."

Almost all your arguements are flawed. Do you see why? Probably not, I will let someone else elaborate. Besides being a 'dinosaur' and playing in big mixed limit games or huge NL games with no cap is about 100x cooler than multi-tabling on line.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

So, I can count on not seeing you at one of my B&M tables?

I can live with that.

[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

"If the live player is a tyrannosaur, online guy doesn't stand a chance. "

Clearly the best post in this thread.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

Everything being the same, if both were playing live, I'd take the Casino guy longterm. He's more used to playing through bad swings that last, time-wise, much longer than an online guy would likely experience.

20+k hands is alot different live than it is online.

b

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

I know a guy who moved from here (tulsa) to be a poker pro in atlantic city (he has family there) around 2001. i didn't know anything about poker at the time but i've started talking to him recently about it online. he said he started out playing 5-10 and now plays 75-150 daily. he said he would never play online for a living because he finds it to be boring and more of a grind. granted, he could definately make more online, but he likes live action more. plus, if you're averaging 1bb/hr at a 75 game, you will have a pretty good living if you are a solid player.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

He must not be very good to be beating those 75/150 stud games for only 1 bet/hour.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

Not only that, but until we humans have been the dominant species on the planet for 60 million years, we will not have earned the right to use the word "dinosaur" as a pejorative.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

Playing live you will not burn out as quickly as you would online, if at all. Especially multi-tabling, which does take a mental toll.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

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Playing live, the casino pro would notice tells and reads that the online pro would not be aware of and may be giving out himself.

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This is the main factor that the original poster left out of his equation. The ability to pick up on tells is a valuable skill in casino-poker, and one that a successful online player may well turn out to lack should he ever try to play in a B&M cardroom. In that case, he will probably find himself being trampled by the dinosaurs. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

Where is that guy "Obviously not a Tyrannosaurus"?

-ZEN

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

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If the live player is a tyrannosaur, online guy doesn't stand a chance.

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Unless the online player is a giant gorilla.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Playing live, the casino pro would notice tells and reads that the online pro would not be aware of and may be giving out himself.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is the main factor that the original poster left out of his equation. The ability to pick up on tells is a valuable skill in casino-poker, and one that a successful online player may well turn out to lack should he ever try to play in a B&M cardroom. In that case, he will probably find himself being trampled by the dinosaurs. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

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Tells are pretty easily corrected. Thanks to Mike Caro, there's good literature on the subject.

After the initial adjustment period, the online player will do fine in a casino.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

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If the live player is a tyrannosaur, online guy doesn't stand a chance.

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Some online player are from the gigantasauros family. The tyrannosaur players are gonna run in fear from them...

--Zetack

Quite frankly, though, I try not to play with players whose arms are too short to reach the table and who are likely to start literally consuming their fellow players. Plus, they are likely to kncck the table over and who needs that.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

These sarcastic posts are as pointless as being a casino pro unless u are playing 20/40 nl and higher...

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

Some of you need to visit the B&M forum more and learn about just what a tyrannosaur can do!!

Also- word to Kurn, that's a very good point.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

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Not only that, but until we humans have been the dominant species on the planet for 60 million years, we will not have earned the right to use the word "dinosaur" as a pejorative.

[/ QUOTE ]

We use excrement as a pejorative, and no matter how long we're on the planet for, excrement will still have been around longer.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

I think that if two people started playing for the first time today, the online guy would progress much quicker than the B&M guy, simply because of the enormous amount of hands that would be played caompared to the B&M. I'm not sure I agree that a new online pro is a favorite over a B&M pro with 20+ years of experience. By the way, I suck at both, but seem to suck less at B&M.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

Which came first the dinosaur or the excr....

n/m

-ZEN

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

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And to pile on to these numbers, the competition online is much stronger, b/c they are also gaining experience at an accelerated rate.

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While this "may" be true to a degree, it is not nearly as accelerated as you probably think. When you are playing 400 hands an hour you have zero time to think about how you played a hand or how your opponent played a hand. When you play live you have time to think about all the different scenarios on how you might have played the hand better. You also get to watch how superior players play a particular hand and take mental notes. This just isn't practical when you are playing 300+ hands an hour. Time to think about how you play your hands is a key process that allows you to improve as a player. Sure you can go back and look at PT numbers but I don't think its the same. However, thats just my opinion.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

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These sarcastic posts...

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OMG!!!! Sarcasm?!?! On 2+2?!?!? Say it's not true!!!!!

[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

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He must not be very good to be beating those 75/150 stud games for only 1 bet/hour.

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he's not.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

Yeah, 150$ an hour is terrible.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

Honestly many of the old casino regulars (ie not pros where I play..) dont know what to do with the online guys that come through. We are too aggressive and too analytical. The softness of the live game kicked me in the balls the first night, but after adjusting, the old guys dont want anything to do with me. The real problem is going from playing live a few weeks in a soft environment back to playing a tight online game. -EV. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

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These sarcastic posts are as pointless as being a casino pro unless u are playing 20/40 nl and higher...

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Oh, like there was any point to your post?

Your post was useless. There's a tremendous variation in skill between various live play pros. There also a tremendous variation in skill between online pros. It makes it really hard to say anything meaningful about a random online pro versus a random (20 year successful) live play pro.

So you'll take a guy whose been a pro online for a year with a 1.3 BB/100 winrate making say 80k over, oh, I don't know...Mason Malmuth?

And take them at what? Heads up? Full table? Live or online?

Like I said worthless.

Having said that, I tend to like a guy who's made a solid living for twenty years at this game over a guy who has made his living at it for a year online.

If your point, on the other hand, is that you can get a whole lot of experience really really fast online, and so its possible for a good onling player to catch up to the experienced live play pros in a relatively short period of time...yeah, I gotta buy that.

--Zetack

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

The value of live tells goes way down once one moves up to the decent limits (like the kind of one can make a living at). The competition just isn't giving away tells that are reliable anymore. Also once you get to the high limits, it becomes increasingly harder to win that 1 big bet per hour.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

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The value of live tells goes way down once one moves up to the decent limits (like the kind of one can make a living at). The competition just isn't giving away tells that are reliable anymore. Also once you get to the high limits, it becomes increasingly harder to win that 1 big bet per hour.

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They are, the tells be more subtle, almost unspottable, but everyone has tells and patterns. It's human nature, you see a big hand you react physically, heart-rate changes a little, whatever. Same thing with bluffing. Aat 20/40 you can be sure tells are a factor.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

One thing that has been briefly mentioned but not expounded on in this thread is the effect of higher skill levels online over lots of hands.

In online play, especially at the mid/high limits, the play is tough enough that one will get torn up with just a few major leaks. Large numbers of hands also ensure one doesnt get by on variance. Players are forced to improve to keep up with the competition.

In a casio, one can get by with more reads. I have played against a number of winning mid/high casino players who got by on "feel" playing with little technical training or even anylitical reasoning. These players get absolutely murdered online. Even casino pros not lacking in the two above catagories can get stuck in a similiar rut. Because the games are so soft and often passive, players are not challenged enough. They can survive with obvious leaks for years. They do not have access to PT stats to help them and are less likely (actually not sure at all about this last point) to discuss lots of hands with others on a daily basis.

I have only been playing seriously for months, but I have still gone through 3 280+ BB downswings. These have been by far the most crucial times in my development as a player. This would probably not happen in a few years of consistent live play.

I would still definently take a seasoned live pro over a newb internet pro.

Re: Casino Pros Are Dinosaurs
 

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So, I can confidently say I would take a player who has been an online pro for a year, over a casino pro who has been playing 20 years of his life.

Thoughts?

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This is a little ridiculous, for a couple reasons. First the differance between 1 year and 20 years is huge no matter how much multie tablng gets in more hands. Second multi tabling means playing at lower stakes with less time to think about each hand and virtually no time to think about the hand after its played. Third a casino pro as you put it must play at pretty high stakes and win alot since he is only playing fewer hands on a single table. Fourth not all a poker players skill comes from the number of hands he has played. The live player has seen more player types, had more time to read about and discuss poker, and has had to be a consistant winner for twenty years.

And finally as was previously said the casino guy is [censored] cool.