$10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

Been playing for a couple of hours, getting a good run of cards and winning a lot of pots without a showdown (except one fairly large one where I stacked some guy with a mighty J-7 s00ted), so I have a pretty laggy image.

The opponent is a good tricky player, one of the better players at the table. His range of hands here can be pretty big, starting from a suited connector, small pair, aces, etc.

Onto the hand ...


Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em, $25 BB (10 handed) converter

BB ($2365)
UTG ($2500)
UTG+1 ($7429)
UTG+2 ($6522)
MP1 ($5672)
MP2 ($2657)
MP3 ($3682)
CO ($2275)
Hero ($4647)
SB ($2277.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls $25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls $25, MP3 calls $25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $25, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: ($160) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG bets $160, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls $160, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $450</font>, BB folds, UTG goes all-in for $2315, MP2 folds, Hero ???.

Final Pot: $1220

Ok ... so now what? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

-ZeroHour

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

Call in a heartbeat?

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

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Call in a heartbeat?

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I probably count to ten and then call.

Hope he had aces.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

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Call in a heartbeat?

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I probably count to ten and then call.

Hope he had aces.

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He didn't because it was posted.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

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Call in a heartbeat?

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I probably count to ten and then call.

Hope he had aces.

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He didn't because it was posted.

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eh, the turn could have been a trey. Or it could be one of those "I was actually the villain" type hands.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

I played a similar hand today, when I checked my top 2 from the BB intending to raise the 2 aggressive players behind me. One bet, the other raised to about 1/3 my stack, I happily pushed, and was shown a set of 3s and a fold...feck. Sound familiar?

Bingo

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

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eh, the turn could have been a trey.

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Good point.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

This is such an easy laydown don't fall in love with your two pair, instead look at how the action went.

He bet you raised, and now he raises again!!

The 3rd raise means business, you are most likely up against a set of 3's.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

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This is such an easy laydown don't fall in love with your two pair, instead look at how the action went.

He bet you raised, and now he raises again!!

The 3rd raise means business, you are most likely up against a set of 3's.

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If the OP had 33 here instead of his 97, do you still muck because he would likely be up against a bigger set?

Clubs dont cross your mind? If I had clubs and a gutshot I would make the exact same play as the villain.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

that's not really the time to make the all in, especially not in a hand that has been limp limp limp.

If there was an open raise then I could see you making your play of going all in with clubs and a gutshot because there is some equity in the fact that you could make your opponent to lay down a higher pair for the fear of drawing dead.

If I had bottom set..... i'd...... i don't know what i'd do i'd probably muck it too. But you have to understand that I'm mucking it in the face of this exact situation. but if I had Middle set I'm calling here 100% of the time.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

With a laggy image i think a fold is giving up too much. The LP raise could easily look like TT to the utg to the villain.

Also, if I was the villain and I had JTc, or 65c or whatever then I'm getting it in there too. In this case its not that important that its an unraised pot when you are pushing with a big draw with that, because you always have equity and vs a laggy player, you have fold equity by pushing vs the button raise.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

I was thinking flush draw as well. I don't know the math, is it +EV to go all in with two clubs and a gutshot? I'd prefer to be open ended. However, I am more inclined to think bottom set. He's representing that hand to prevent the OP, who is in position, from representing it later on a bluff. For example, OP raised him. If he just calls, then the flush or straight card hits, OP can represent it. I think if he had the flush and/or straight draw, he'd call the bet and let the OP fire again on the turn and the villain would trap at that point. I think his all-in is his way of protecting his bottom set from the possible flush/straight draws.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

true, and he's more inclined to get it in on the flop with a set because of the danger involved in letting the guy in the middle see a turn. Still, I can't get away from this.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

So the general consensus is to call. A friend of mine who plays high suggested smooth-calling the flop as an alternate line and taking it from there.

He didn't have the time to explain why, as he was running out, but what do you guys think about simply calling the flop and taking it from there? It doesn't seem like a very good idea to me, personally, but what do I know ...

-ZeroHour

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

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If I had bottom set..... i'd...... i don't know what i'd do i'd probably muck it too.

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This is unspeakably bad.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

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So the general consensus is to call. A friend of mine who plays high suggested smooth-calling the flop as an alternate line and taking it from there.

He didn't have the time to explain why, as he was running out, but what do you guys think about simply calling the flop and taking it from there? It doesn't seem like a very good idea to me, personally, but what do I know ...

-ZeroHour

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yeah, this is an option, but not the best one given people in the middle. it's more like if you get checkraised here and it's HU you take a turn so hands like T8c and the like wont have such aneven equity advantage.

anyway, this is a real easy call...

I dont know whats up with the board lately, alot of people advocate folding when folding is weak and bad and wrong and all that. i call too much but this isn't a good spot to look to make a nice laydown.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

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anyway, this is a real easy call...

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What do you put him on that makes this a <font color="black"> </font>really easy call?

-ZeroHour

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

FOLD!!! its the right thing to do. However, that being said, i would call but im an [censored] and that is my biggest leak. i see 33 there or perhaps a straight flush draw

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

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anyway, this is a real easy call...

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What do you put him on that makes this a <font color="black"> </font>really easy call?

-ZeroHour

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YUCK, I just posted a reply and it got erased. It boils down to this. Your hand needs around 36% equity to make it break even, (it's like 1860 to win 5300) you said he's very laggy. There are tons of draws, (T8c, 56c, JTc, even AXc or T8raw or similar lesser draws) possible overplayed hands (A9, TT, who knows) the same hand is very possible...

And only one combo of 99/77 each. 33 you have a little bit of equity anyways.

I dont like raising the flop if you were going to drop to an allin.

BTW, Im more or less restating prevacator's post.

Results
 

I didn't have a good feeling about this one ... thought about it for a while and then decided to let it go and live to fight another day.

Turned out I was wrong and you guys were right - he was a nice guy and typed "I don't usually show, but here it is" and showed down 5c-6c. I politely thanked him and, once again, thought that it's a good thing that I still have a day job.

Thanks for all the advice - appreciate it! [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

-ZeroHour

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

I agree, it's a tough laydown, but, if you're sure the man has a set, you almost have to. There are just too many ways you're beaten. Although the most common winning hand in no-limit is two pair (I think I read that in Phil Gordon's book) you can't fall in love with it just like you can't fall in love with aces if you feel they're beat, you played the hand well, now it's time to surrender it.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

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Although the most common winning hand in no-limit is two pair (I think I read that in Phil Gordon's book) you can't fall in love with it just like you can't fall in love with aces if you feel they're beat, you played the hand well, now it's time to surrender it.

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Maybe you realize it, but this is flawed reasoning. Two pair may be the most common winning hand over a large number of hold'em hands (probably based on all 10 players staying to the river?), but it doesn't take into account the board texture and the actions of the other players. You can't just think "oh I have two pair, I'm all-in".

Re: Results
 

I can't understand why someone with so many outs would go all in on the flop. Why not just call the raise and extract more money when you make your flush/straight/straight flush? I mean, OP is obviously aggressive. Make the hand then give him an opportunity to fire again.

Re: Results
 

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I can't understand why someone with so many outs would go all in on the flop. Why not just call the raise and extract more money when you make your flush/straight/straight flush? I mean, OP is obviously aggressive. Make the hand then give him an opportunity to fire again.

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because some people will lay down top 2 or a set.

Re: Results
 

i suck. :-(

Re: Results
 

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I can't understand why someone with so many outs would go all in on the flop. Why not just call the raise and extract more money when you make your flush/straight/straight flush? I mean, OP is obviously aggressive. Make the hand then give him an opportunity to fire again.

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Besides getting decent made hands to fold -- there were several other callers, your flush draw is not to the nuts, you really don't want to be up against another flush draw, and a reraise will shake them out.

Re: Results
 

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I can't understand why someone with so many outs would go all in on the flop. Why not just call the raise and extract more money when you make your flush/straight/straight flush? I mean, OP is obviously aggressive. Make the hand then give him an opportunity to fire again.


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He's got a huge draw on flop; its much less huge when he misses turn and opponent sets him all in.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

why such a weak flop raise? that's a tad under half-pot raise. 800 would be psr.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

The opponent is a good tricky player, one of the better players at the table.

Since we hold a 9 and a 7, are we really going to fear a set that much? This is a good time to NOT fear a set so much. If the opponent is a nut-peddling rock, then this is a clear muck... but he is a tricky good player AND you hold key cards for his possible combinations. You hit this flop hard... mucking top 2 on flop vs a tricky good player is a pretty timid play...

Admittedly, I play something less than a deep stack to make this decision easier and when it gets deep, my weak-tight play clearly increases... But the right play is to get it in and rebuy if he shows 33. I am not mucking top 2 on the flop vs a non-rock. Top pair, I muck... Top 2, get it in.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

As many said, this is an easy call.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

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If I had bottom set..... i'd...... i don't know what i'd do i'd probably muck it too.

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This is unspeakably bad.

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Why is that? Aren't you supposed to play suited connectors and small pairs just so you can muck them when you hit your flop?

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

thinking about this hand I have to admit I made a mistake in saying that your opp had a set of 3's, its just the other day i played a similar hand like this and I was shown a set, but the action was a little different.

My opponnent bet out and i reraised, he did not push all in, he instead made another reraise.


Had this opp. made another small reraise or a reraise which was not all in, then i think you can make a case for folding, but this opponnent shoved all his chips in which screams out, go away.

Do you guys sometimes fold these hands anyway since if they are on big draws then you're kind of a small favorite to win?

Your hand is pretty much locked, meaning you don't have much room for improvement so why take a chance.... just my two cents.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

The villain is utg with 4 players to act behind him. he makes about a pot sized bet. Why would he bet out his set like this? With 4 players to act, wouldn't he probably go for a check raise?
Are aces or kings out of the question? You could very well be raising with k9,a9, or pocket 10s and now he feels like he's trapped you with his slowplayed aces or kings.

The big draw also seems as realistic. He is getting all of the money in there and he knows that most decent players will lay down a9 or pocket 10s versus a raise that big. And the times you do call he has an ok shot to win. Good fold equity on his part.
As tricky of a player he is, I would lay down up to pocket aces seeing as how a tricky player like this might even be playing a garbagey hand like 73 for small 2 pair.

Because of the low chance that he would play a set like this (and he would probably minraise your reraise too, not go all in) I would call and hope to see 73 or a big overpair. But it still feels like a draw.

Re: Results
 

Right, but the only way you're going to get any more money out of him is to give him a chance to bluff at it. If you flop the top full house, and you have an obviously aggressive person to act behind you, check and let him bet the hand for you. You know you have him crippled.

Re: $10-25 NL - two pair facing a lot of resistance
 

I'm with you Mikey.