Playing AK from Early Position
 

Are we sure that raising AK from early position is correct even though all the books say you should raise?

For example:

If I raise from UTG before the flop and get called, it's an obvious mistake for my opponents to call without something good (of course, some people do it). If they call and it's a raggy flop, it's hard for me to bet since the range of hands that should call my raise includes a lot of good pairs, and they're happy to have an overpair vs my AK.

But without a raise, I get to play a lot of hands against AJ or KT, or worse in them that would have folded to a raise. If I hit the flop, they will never fold and will call me to the river.

Can we get a discussion going on this that goes beyond "it's a premium value hand so raise it"!

Maybe it's correct against really weak players that will call the raise with crap, but not against better players that won't.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

You don't say what stakes you are playing at, but I think you will always find people who will call a raise with anything. AK is a drawing hand but a strong one. Pre-flop you raise it for value and re-raise to try and isolate and get HU with the original raiser. Yes, it's hard to play if it doesn't hit the flop, but that doesn't mean you don't raise with it pre-flop. Maybe you need to look at how you are playing AK after the flop?

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

ok fine i'll bite.

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Can we get a discussion going on this that goes beyond "it's a premium value hand so raise it"!

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no. not if you are talking about microlimit games where the quality of the opposition is poor.

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Maybe it's correct against really weak players that will call the raise with crap, but not against better players that won't.

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exactly what sort of non crap will better players be playing against us? are we afraid someone has AA-TT always?

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

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You don't say what stakes you are playing at, but I think you will always find people who will call a raise with anything. AK is a drawing hand but a strong one. Pre-flop you raise it for value and re-raise to try and isolate and get HU with the original raiser. Yes, it's hard to play if it doesn't hit the flop, but that doesn't mean you don't raise with it pre-flop. Maybe you need to look at how you are playing AK after the flop?

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I completely agree. I've seen these players cold call 52o and call all the way with a pair of fives. you NEED TO RAISE! They will call you if you don't and if you do. So get more money with the best hand in the pot. I usually raise AJ even from SB and BB if there are only a few loosepassivers in the pot. You make alot when they call you with AT or something similar. I'm no expert playing after the flop with missed AK and many times I see myself overplaying it. You need self-discipline!

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

Against thinking players, it makes you very predictable if you only open big pairs, and makes it very easy for them to play correctly against you post-flop.

At any level, it's a raise for value. Maybe at a level where deception is worth more, you might limp, but never in a microlimit game.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

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But without a raise, I get to play a lot of hands against AJ or KT, or worse in them that would have folded to a raise. If I hit the flop, they will never fold and will call me to the river.

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I think this is the main problem with not raising AK pre flop. Most bad players do call raises with these types of hands and still pay off to the river even tag players defend their blinds with these same types of hands and pay off to the river even over playing their hands sometimes. I am not saying deception and mixing up your play isn't part of the game but it tends to be lost on the players that i play against at the party 2/4 and i would assume the same goes for the lower limits. I think in short all you are really doing by not raising AK pre flop is costing yourself money by missing bets.

Also raising allows you to take the lead in the hand and win many pots unimproved so even in tight games raising is far better than trying to trap.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

you still would like to fold as many hands that have at least 6 outs against you, plus any pocket pairs to fold. AJ/KQ and worse Ax hands sometimes cold call, so they're looking at 3 outs to hit- so you're, in the long run, making money off of these coldcallers even the few times they do hit.

plus you have about 6 outs to a better hand against most 3-betting preflop hands. what i think is sometimes overdone is capping preflop. w/o a lot of dead money (only HU or 3-handed) and against a player who would only 3-bet with a premium hand, capping is spewing IMO.

plus you 3-bet because of the same reasons you raise. you cap when there are players that cold call with such crap as i described above, so you want a big pot to call for your 6-outer, not including the times you may have the best hand and hit your A/K on the flop.

others can work out the math, but hopefully that makes sense.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

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what i think is sometimes overdone is capping preflop. w/o a lot of dead money (only HU or 3-handed) and against a player who would only 3-bet with a premium hand, capping is spewing IMO.

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I actually agree with this. I'll cap in multiway pots but not HU or even 3handed usually. Unless I've been playing against the same guy all night and I'm trying to mix it up a bit. But it's the exception.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

For all the times I've cursed for raising preflop with AK and have to fold or lose with it post-flop, I still show a substantial profit with it because when I do raise it and win the hand the pots are usually pretty big - whereas if I didn't they tend to be small.

When AK turns into overcards, I think SSH blatantly says most people will never be comfortable playing overcards.

For discussion purposes, when you raise AK preflop from EP and you miss the flop - I almost always autobet/call. In these cases the turn is the crux of the hands. If I bet and am called on the flop and do not improve on the turn, I re-examine the flop for coordination as recommend by SSH (and per size of the pot). If it was really ragged I re-consider check/call check/fold (ragged flops often indicate a pair). If it was really coordinated I re-consider check/call check/fold (very coord flops indicate possible strong draws or slowplays). If the flop was moderately coordinated I am more likely to bet/call. I think showing fold to bet on each street is a crucial PAHUD stat to have here when deciding how to continue.

Again, I too am still uncomfortable raising AK and I often lose with it. But when I win, I win big.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

Ok, I guess I wasn't clear enough when I said it's correct against weak players that will call with any crap like in the micros. I know that.

I'm talking about situations where an UTG raise will often if not usually get you heads up against another premium hand - very often a good pair. That situation might not be better than allowing some AJ, KT, KJ hands etc... limp in where we would have them dominated.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

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what i think is sometimes overdone is capping preflop. w/o a lot of dead money (only HU or 3-handed) and against a player who would only 3-bet with a premium hand, capping is spewing IMO.

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I actually agree with this. I'll cap in multiway pots but not HU or even 3handed usually. Unless I've been playing against the same guy all night and I'm trying to mix it up a bit. But it's the exception.

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I defintely agree with this.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

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what i think is sometimes overdone is capping preflop. w/o a lot of dead money (only HU or 3-handed) and against a player who would only 3-bet with a premium hand, capping is spewing IMO.

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I actually agree with this. I'll cap in multiway pots but not HU or even 3handed usually. Unless I've been playing against the same guy all night and I'm trying to mix it up a bit. But it's the exception.

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I defintely agree with this.

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Why would I want to cap heads up unless I know the guy 3 bets with crap. I am probably either even or behind a big pair. I'm only about 1/3 to hit the flop. Plus hitting the K doesn't even win it for you if he has KK or AA.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

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Ok, I guess I wasn't clear enough when I said it's correct against weak players that will call with any crap like in the micros. I know that.

I'm talking about situations where an UTG raise will often if not usually get you heads up against another premium hand - very often a good pair. That situation might not be better than allowing some AJ, KT, KJ hands etc... limp in where we would have them dominated.

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Re-read the comments. What limits are you playing that you are regularly being called when you raise with AK by only AA or KK? AK is about the 3rd best starting hand, you want people calling with garbage against it. Over 37+k hands on Party it is my 3rd or 4th most profitable hand. Post a hand where you think it was correct to not raise with this pre-flop.

Does your usual AK hand go like this:
You: raise
Them: call, call, call
Flop: no A or K
You: check
Them: bet, bet, bet
You: fold "I can't win with AK at these leves because they don't respect my raises!"

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

This question has nothing to do with the limits I am playing at these days or my results on the table. I always raise and I am burying my opponents. So I must be playing the hands well.

I am thinking that my strategy may not be optimal against better opponents that usually only call my UTG raise with premium pairs etc... because it gets me heads up when I am behind way too often. The limp would get me into multi way pot with just as much money in the hand. I would often have those guys dominated but they wouldn't know it because I limped. So they pay me off all the way.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

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This question has nothing to do with the limits I am playing at these days or my results on the table. I always raise and I am burying my opponents. So I must be playing the hands well.

I am thinking that my strategy may not be optimal against better opponents that usually only call my UTG raise with premium pairs etc... because it gets me heads up when I am behind way too often. The limp would get me into multi way pot with just as much money in the hand. I would often have those guys dominated but they wouldn't know it because I limped. So they pay me off all the way.

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the problem with this line of thought is that when a solid player decides to play back at you it is vastly more likely he has 99-QQ, AQ, or AJ than exactly AA or KK (or AK). so it's not really the end of the world. and most of the time overall, the solid players will fold and you take the blinds. yeehaw. free blinds!

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

When one of these better players raises pre-flop after you have limped with AK what do you do? Do you fold because you are obviously way behind? How many times a session do you see a slow played monster get beat by something that would have been folded if it was raised pre-flop?

If you always raise AK and are burying your oppents why do you want to change to a strategy that is designed to cost you bets?

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

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This question has nothing to do with the limits I am playing at these days or my results on the table. I always raise and I am burying my opponents. So I must be playing the hands well.

I am thinking that my strategy may not be optimal against better opponents that usually only call my UTG raise with premium pairs etc... because it gets me heads up when I am behind way too often. The limp would get me into multi way pot with just as much money in the hand. I would often have those guys dominated but they wouldn't know it because I limped. So they pay me off all the way.

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It's got to be very read dependent, but even then I'm not even sure that it's a good idea to limp with premium hands. You are taking a chance on letting the BB in on an unraised pot. I've taken down some pretty nice pots with rags from the BB when premium hands like AK and AQ just limped preflop. I'm always very thankful that they let me see the flop. Yes this is against weak opponents, but its pretty hard to put someone on a hand when you let them see the flop for "free". And if you're playing against better opponents who know how to play post flop, I think you've set yourself up for real trouble.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

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If you always raise AK and are burying your oppents why do you want to change to a strategy that is designed to cost you bets?

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Because something that is optimal 90% of the time may not be optimal 100% of the time.

I think people (including myself) have been simply assuming it is always right to raise from UTG with AK because it's a high value hand and because all the books say you should.

I am just questioning whether it's always right and want to hear the argument for always doing it because on some tables you'll often find yourself heads up, behind, and only hit the flop about 1/3.

If you are 1/3 to hit the flop, you are heads up and behind, putting in 1 extra bet pre flop against for one extra bet from your opponent doesn't sound so great to me.

The downside of letting extra players in is obvious. but like I said before many of those extra hands will be AJ, AQ, AT, KJ, KQ etc... Those hands will hit the flop when you do and go all the way because they have no idea you have AK because you limped.

I not saying you should limp!!!!

I'm saying it may not be as obvious as everything thinks. It may be worthy of some more thought.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

* even though you specifically requested it not be discussed, it is a valid point: you are investing in a hand with lots of equity.
* When the flop hits you you will always have TPTK.
* Weaker players will not consider what an EP raiser has, and often play AQ-Ax, and they will be dominated.
* If the flop misses you, and there are no backdoor draws to speak of and your overcard outs are not clean, the hand is easy to release.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

I did a Turbo Texas Holdem simulation.

I put Bret Maverick (one of the best players) UTG against the "tough lineup" and gave him AKo every time. for 10 million hands he raised and for 10 million he limped.

His EV stats were +.519 raising and + .4345 limping.

Raising was better, but they were pretty close and this is just one player on one specific table.

I would say there are probably some conditions you are better off limping given how close it is, but I'm not sure where.

If I get a chance to play with it some more I'll let you know if I find anything.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

Actually, these 2 EV figures indicate that it is a little more than 16% better to raise UTG with this hand. Raising increases the profitability of this hand by 16%--calling and raising are not even in the sam ballpark.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

I did many more TTH simulations and I'm starting to think that limping with AKs from UTG is superior to raising while raising with AKo is superior.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

Raising UTG may get everyone to fold in a tough game. That´s 0.75BB! AA, AKs and KK is strong enough to limp and then perhaps re-raise. But don´t think AKo has enough multiway edge for that.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

I skimmed through this thread, and I'm just going to cherrypick some quotes and respond to them all at once.

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Are we sure that raising AK from early position is correct even though all the books say you should raise?

...

Maybe it's correct against really weak players that will call the raise with crap, but not against better players that won't.

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Yes. I'm very sure you should raise. You need very specific circumstances to deviate from this default play because the amount you lose by not raising preflop is difficult to make up in postflop play. The sorts of situations you would limp involve opponents whe are

- Tight preflop
- Good hand readers
- Aggressive

In general, you won't find players of this type at most of the low limit online tables. You may find the occassional TAG, but most of the time you're trying to *AVOID* confrontations with him, so you'll want to raise and keep him out of the pot.

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But without a raise, I get to play a lot of hands against AJ or KT, or worse in them that would have folded to a raise. If I hit the flop, they will never fold and will call me to the river.

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Depending on the opponents, you may also get to play against those hands if you raise -- this gets you the best of both worlds. They will also call you down only HALF the time you hit the flop because the other half of the time you pair your unshared kicker.

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For example:

If I raise from UTG before the flop and get called, it's an obvious mistake for my opponents to call without something good (of course, some people do it). If they call and it's a raggy flop, it's hard for me to bet since the range of hands that should call my raise includes a lot of good pairs, and they're happy to have an overpair vs my AK.

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"Hands that should call my raise" is a very read-based assumption. And the fact that it's hard for you to bet the turn without a pair is fine. It seems like you have an entitlement affliction where you feel like you should somehow win the pot because you raised preflop and bet the flop. Poker doesn't work that way.

You've got no hand and apparently villain caught enough on the flop to continue (another very read-based assumption -- some players peel flops with absolute garbage). It's okay to give up the hand sometimes.

It's also not an "obvious" mistake because a player is not making a mistake to call your raise with a medium pair (based on his position and your cards). It's probably better for him to 3-bet you, but he's making money off that coldcall. This is more true if he's not afraid to bet/raise postflop and put you to the test.

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This question has nothing to do with the limits I am playing at these days or my results on the table. I always raise and I am burying my opponents. So I must be playing the hands well.

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You have to do some pretty stupid things to lose money with this hand. It's a very strong hand that almost makes money all by itself. There's a difference between playing the hand well and making money with it.

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I think people (including myself) have been simply assuming it is always right to raise from UTG with AK because it's a high value hand and because all the books say you should.

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You assume wrong. Experience came before the books, and it teaches that AK is a very strong hand that is worth raising UTG. Then those people who saw from experience that raising is the better play wrote it down in books to pass along to the rest of us.

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I put Bret Maverick (one of the best players) UTG against the "tough lineup" and gave him AKo every time. for 10 million hands he raised and for 10 million he limped.

His EV stats were +.519 raising and + .4345 limping.

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You should have run your sims against all sorts of tables to see how the EV changes (relatively) with the table. In general, I don't trust TTH for helping me to determine the "better" or "worse" plays.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

Trading preflop equity for postflop equity isn't worth it.

You don't want to be playing with multiple people when you have AK. You want to get it headsup. By limping you allow lots of people into the pot, something you dont' want to happen.

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

Actually, if I'm UTG with AKo and raise I want as many calls as I can get (don't want to play it heads up). Any hand much better than me is going to three bet. Cold Calls = $$$

Re: Playing AK from Early Position
 

"You should have run your sims against all sorts of tables to see how the EV changes (relatively) with the table. In general, I don't trust TTH for helping me to determine the "better" or "worse" plays. "

I specifically ran some of my simulations against the tightest and toughest players available in the latest version of TTH because it's obvious to me that against weaker players that will call the UTG raise with less than premium hands I am way better off raising.

The results indicated that against most players you are better off raising both AKo and AKs. However, against the toughtest opponents you are better off raising AKo and limping AKs.

I believe I know why that's the case, but it's hard to prove because I ran millions of hands.

I rarely play on a tough enough table at the micro limits for limping AKs to make sense, but I intend to test this theory out as I move up the ranks.