Automating Session Reviews
 

Abstract: I am presenting an automated, web-based method for organizing and executing session reviews. (There, I don't want to see any tl;dr's now.)

(Mods: This is software-related, but given the audience, I think this forum may be better for getting ideas and working out specs. No other related threads will be created in this forum (by me).)

I really enjoyed the session review we had last week and had a thought that the whole process of organizing the sesion review could be automated. Not only that, but one could submit a session at any time to get reviewed even if there were no group reviews being organized. I've already coded up a bit of it, so the idea is very workable. Here's how I see it working:

Submitting a session:
You create a (free) account on the web site. Once logged in, you can upload a hand history file. You can make your session either public or private. If public, anyone can see and choose to review it; if private, you will receive a session ID which will be required by anyone wishing to review your session. You will be able to see the status of your session at any time, including who is reviewing your session and how far along they are in the review. You can "review a review" and go through and see and respond to comments left by reviewers at any time.

Reviewing a session:
If someone wants you to review their play, they will give you a session ID, which you can use to access the session on the web site. You may also browse sessions that people have made public, sorting by site, limit, and number of hands. When the review process is initiated, you'll see one hand at a time with the option to make comments. You can skip throught the hands as you'd like, but you'll only get credit for a completed review if every hand either has a comment or "No comment" applied.

Features/Notes:
* Hands could/will be prettied up a la hand converter.
* You can review your own session, so you can use this solo if only to make the hands pretty.
* Statistics will be kept on how many sessions you've submitted, how many reviews you've performed, etc.
* There may be a submission/review ratio restriction implemented to keep people from taking without giving, though that's pretty easy to work around.

Privacy Concerns:
* All submitted sessions would have a 2 week lifespan before they're purged from the server (too strict?).
* You would have the option to make your session publicly browsable. If private, a reviewer could only access your session through a unique session id provided by the session owner.
* Hand history numbers would be mangled.
* Hero's identity can be changed to whatever he likes.
* All opponents' identities can (will?) be changed in such a way that you can follow the action from hand to hand.

I'd like this to be as simple as possible while being as effective and usable as possible. So, what do you think?

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

doo eet mang! DOOOOO EEEEEET!!!!

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

I like it.

I'm still planning on continuing the coordinated session review as before, but this would be a nice tool.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

i love this idea, and i've been kind of mulling over it in my head. i suggest that instead of a string of prettied up text, there is a graphical replayer that shows the hands in some sort of graphical format, as if you were actually playing.

this would be much easier to review. basically, we'd have a 'video' service, except, we would only be using trivial amounts of bandwidth, and we would be able to access each parts of the hand very precisely. (like, you could make a link to the replayer replaying one specific hand.)

also i think there should be provisions for obfuscating your opponents' names and yours as well. and maybe a way to provide reads on them. and there should be an awesome way to do comments. maybe on the site itself, or a button you would press that would automatically start a thread and paste in the relevant text or something. maybe i'm dreaming of this thing being much larger than you intended =P

i just woke up so i probably didn't fully grasp your post, if i went over something that you already mentioned i apologize. and if you need a perl programmer pm me.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

Dream away! The more ideas suggested, the better chance of improving the usability.

Yes, there will definitely be provisions for hiding yours and your opponent's identities. You will also be able to make comments directly on the site, so everything is all stored and accessible together. Think something along the lines of hand review posts here on 2+2 except you get the context of the whole session. Basically, once you upload your session file, you won't need to refer to anything other than the web site from then on.

I like the hand replayer idea. If I knew any flash programming, I might give it a shot. Java is another option, but the replayer itself may be a bit too ambitious for the amount of free time I have. If you or anyone else wants to donate that kind of function, I think it would be an excellent addition.

What I've written so far is all Perl, so I might hit you up if I need a hand anywhere. Thanks for the feedback!

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

So far 4 people have voted option three, but I haven't seen too much in the way of concerns. Let's hear them!

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

we might be able to make a replayer using that AJAX crap but yeah, it sounds like a nightmare to make. i'll investigate

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

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So far 4 people have voted option three, but I haven't seen too much in the way of concerns. Let's hear them!

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I love the idea. My only concern is that the site would quickly become inactive unless there was some way of encouraging users to review without taking away from the quality of the reviews. I'm afraid that the site would eventually become flooded with hand histories without many active reviewers. The reason it doesn't happen here on 2p2 is because it is actively discouraged -- In an unsupervised setting, I can't think of a reasonable way to discourage "over posting" without forcing users to review.

I'd love to see a site that resembles the semi-monthly session reviews here. This type of setting encourages participation and gives an immediate sense of community (something that web sites thrive on). For example (and right off the top of my head), the site would host a session review, however frequently, and limit participation to so many users (maybe 10 or 20). Registered users would signup for these sessions and upload their hand history. The site would then randomly assign a hand history to each of the participants, who would review each hand and submit these comments back to the user before some deadline. The site could even break down the histories into individual hands and randomly assign 50 hands to each participant. This way users and their hand histories are "connected" instead of just "hosted".

The great thing about having a web site host these "round table" session reviews is that they would be automatically and quickly organized, and infinitely extensible in how they are organized.

Sorry to ramble on with ideas. I'd be interested in helping you develop the site if needed. My email address is adhall@gmail.com -- I'll be checking the thread too.

EDIT: clarity

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

The idea for keeping people from overposting without doing any reviews would be to put an upload/review ratio in place. For example, for every 2 reviews you complete, you can upload 3 sessions to be reviewed.

My vision (not the hallucinogenic kind) is that each history will be broken up into separate hands and displayed on separate pages for review. Breaking them into groups for random assignment would be very easy.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

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My vision (not the hallucinogenic kind) is that each history will be broken up into separate hands and displayed on separate pages for review.

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So sessions would not be reviewed as a whole? We will not have any reads and some people are gonna see a lot of preflop folds. Or are you suggesting we only submit hands in which we saw the flop? I would want my sessions and the ones I review to be complete 100-200 hands.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

Hmm its a tough one really.

Any newbie will probably want more sessions reviewed and his reviews will most likly suck.

I'll use myself as an example.
I consider myself an "ok" player. However should i review some guys session whose playing professional and felt like playing some 1/2 from his 100/200 game my advice would probably be poor.

Now compare a 100/200 player reviwing a 1/2 session of mine, i think i'd gain more.

So i feel newbies would just make crappy reviews to have their sessions reviewed.

I think you'd be in competition with this forum also, I mean pretty much ever post here is a hand history requestion advice.

It sounds nice, but give it a month and i can see it becoming a poor service.

Sorry [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

Sorry, I guess I'm not being clear. I'll try better [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] The session will be reviewed as a whole, but you'll see the hands one at a time. Basically, you'll start a review session and get the first hand. Comment on that and click a button to get the next hand, and so forth. If you want to skip around hands to see action on previous hands or to get reads, you can do that.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

Hey, I'll take the bad with the good. It's all useful.

Honestly, if you're playing 1/2, you're going to get a more useul review from a good 1/2 player than a 100/200 player. The games are too different. Even getting your session reviewed by someone playing lower limits than you can be very instructive. I play 3/6 and had a 1/2 playre review my session last week. I think he did a great job.

I don't mean for this to be competitive with these forums at all. For one, there won't be discussion forums (except possibly for technical help). Also, I would expect hands in which there's not agreement between player and reviewer to be posted here for general discussion.

I appreciate your feedback. It's good to hear stuff like this before I sink lots of time into it.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

is there a wiki that can help with such a thing?

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

Dang, dude. This would be pretty sweet. I'd love to see it happen as you describe. As a mod, though, I feel compelled to add one thing, though. If this flies, and you want to post about it in the forum or used for the session revies that Numeri organizes, then you won't be able to charge for it or have any banner ads. You will be allowed to ask for donations, however, which I think is a pretty reasonable request given how much you'd have to pay for this out of pocket.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

So basically.

You log in, Hunt down POKhERS sessions, find one and go through each hand(Presented in a sexy format like 2+2 or maybe even replayed).

You have a comment box and these are "attached" to each individual hand.

I tend say get an email saying Slansky just reviewed your session please go here to see comments made. It will list the hands with comment, almost like a forum format?

I.e. "Hero blah blah wins pot [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Fish mucks"

"I think you played this hand ok, id of lost the pot and clubbed the fish"

if i disagree, can i then add a comment to his comment?

"Yeah but if i club the fish then ive got to hit a spade to burry him"

or do i now need to go to 2+2 and say "So sklanksy you say this and that and i reckon i should of done this and that"?


This paragraph ^^^^ would make me wonder if it would be in competition with 2+2 forum.

Actually sounds good if its what im thinking(see above). Bit shattered and on tilt so didn't read the whole thread back over.

How would you break even interms of money though? I mean sure advertising if it kicks off and donations will help a bit but for a storage space its going to cost a bit(Bandwidth).

i guess you could get it cheaper by compressing hands and stuff?

Anyhow yeah on second review it sounds pretty good. Having only a technical forum is cool.

I guess its like POKERAVI but with hand history formats and comments wont be in a forum thread?

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

I voted 3, here is why.

Personally I love the idea, I actually think that you can learn almost as much reviewing other people's hand histories as you can from people reviewing your own.

However, the key to this is reviewing GOOD players hand histories. If you are picking up a hand history file I think that I would like to know if it is someone who is winning at 3bb/100 and looking for minor tweaks or someone who is -3bb/100 and in desparate need of help.

The issue will be to have people provide a screenshot of their PT general tab before posting, so that you know what your getting into.

I don't know if this makes any sense, but it is what I was thinking.

Margon

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

I hadn't planned on charging anything (see "free" in OP) and hadn't thought about advertising. I (optimistally?) expected that my play would improve by the $x per month by using the site myself to cover the costs [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I also expect bandwidth to be pretty cheap considering there's no multimedia files being transmitted over the wire. Of course donations wouldn't be turned down.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

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is there a wiki that can help with such a thing?

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I don't think so. At least not in the incarnation of such a beast as I'm thinking about.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

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I guess its like POKERAVI but with hand history formats and comments wont be in a forum thread?

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I suppose, for the most part, this is true. Here are its advantages in my mind though: bandwidth issues should go away, from both my and the user's sides; hand history text files are far more accessible to the masses (in terms of being technically competent) than creating video files; the ability to annotate the hand directly, rather than refer to it by time/frame/hand number/etc.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

I've been mulling something very similar, though your idea is on a much grander scale. I'm designing a session reviewer that links back into the PT database and shows the realtime stats of your opponents. For instance, if it's relatively early in your session, and you only have 20 hands on your opponent, that's how many hands worth of stats that you'll have on that opponent.

Because of that feature, I don't think that I can really do it online.

Was planning on doing this in C# in VS2005

edit: also, I feel that "playing along" is much, MUCH more valuable in reviewing a session than just reading a prettied up hand history. Adding a feature that allows comments on every action junction would be valuable.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
I hadn't planned on charging anything (see "free" in OP) and hadn't thought about advertising. I (optimistally?) expected that my play would improve by the $x per month by using the site myself to cover the costs [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I also expect bandwidth to be pretty cheap considering there's no multimedia files being transmitted over the wire. Of course donations wouldn't be turned down.

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The money that you spend on hosting the site would be trivial compared to the time (time = money) spent in setting it up and maintaining it.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
However, the key to this is reviewing GOOD players hand histories. If you are picking up a hand history file I think that I would like to know if it is someone who is winning at 3bb/100 and looking for minor tweaks or someone who is -3bb/100 and in desparate need of help.

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Yeah, I can see people getting upset that their sessions are being reviewed by players they see as not good. This can be solved by making your sessions private and giving access to them only to people you trust to give you good input. For example, you could arrange a review here on the forums or numeri could organize a mass review session.

Someone with a -3BB/100 is a trainwreck that really needs to spend time on individual hands and concepts. I see the benefit of session review over hand reviews as having that extra bit of context that helps swing close calls - sort of the next step. Nonetheless, I see what you mean.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm designing a session reviewer that links back into the PT database and shows the realtime stats of your opponents. For instance, if it's relatively early in your session, and you only have 20 hands on your opponent, that's how many hands worth of stats that you'll have on that opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know you're working on other aspects as well, but the PT player already does this for VP$IP and PFR. (not aggression, though) Adding aggression and other stuff like ASB would be nice.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm designing a session reviewer that links back into the PT database and shows the realtime stats of your opponents. For instance, if it's relatively early in your session, and you only have 20 hands on your opponent, that's how many hands worth of stats that you'll have on that opponent.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know you're working on other aspects as well, but the PT player already does this for VP$IP and PFR. (not aggression, though) Adding aggression and other stuff like ASB would be nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ideally, it would be like PAHUD where you can pick and choose. In fact, I like PAHUD so much that I would like to emulate it completely into the hand reviewer [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

Looks like your key focus is quality of review. I'm thinking back to the days where FTP sites had "points" that you acquire by uploading files, which you could then redeem for downloading files. Perhaps a similar idea could be employed in this case. You earn points by reviewing sessions, thereby allowing you to post sessions of your own. You would probably have to award points based on the size of the session you are reviewing.

Mandatory things for ease of use:
<ul type="square">[*] Every hand converted and posted according to the standards listed on 2+2[*] Reads provided automatically, if available[*] Anonymity[/list]

I briefly read over some of the other ideas in this thread. To the OP: simplicity is key. I'm a software engineer, so I might be interested in drafting some hard requirements and coming up with a solid design. I may or may not have time to dedicate, but PM me if you'd like.

Some more ideas:
One conern I noted is that players may be concerned with who is reviewing their sessions. Similarly to how these forums have a post count, this app could offer a count of how many hands an individual has reviewed. Additionally, players could provide their own stats. You may also want to include some sort of method for reviewees to contact reviewers. It may also help to provide random sessions to be assigned to reviewers.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

I [censored] love this idea, but the organization of it all seems really difficult to put together. Are people randomly reviewing sessions? This could lead to a LOT of people posting entire sessions that would probably never be seen by anyone. I think this would have to, in part, incorporate a pairing-off system similar to what was used in the review session we did last week.

Re: Automating Session Reviews
 

[ QUOTE ]
The idea for keeping people from overposting without doing any reviews would be to put an upload/review ratio in place. For example, for every 2 reviews you complete, you can upload 3 sessions to be reviewed.



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This would be my biggest concern.

Also options allowing the user to say what sort of HH they would like to review would be good so that 1/2 players aren't reviewing 15/30 games, but the top players could review smaller games if they wanted.

Overall I think something like this would be a very good idea.