QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

if I were MP3, I would just call. in CO, I raised to buy the button, should I just let him and the blinds come along?

Flop: (10 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

Should I cap? If I had KJ or KT there is room for another face card flush that I beat.. but not with QJ. I'm not sure how well the flop bet 'disguises' my flush in other players' eyes.

River: (12.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB
<font color="green">Main Pot: 14.50 BB, between Hero and UTG+1.</font>

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

Limp pf. QJs is a strong drawing hand... why scare people off? Not very strong heads-up.

other than that... good all around.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
Limp pf. QJs is a strong drawing hand... why scare people off? Not very strong heads-up.

other than that... good all around.

[/ QUOTE ]

i posted this because it is in between several PF ideas for me.

I would limp in MP3 after 2 limpers.
I would limp in CO after 3 limpers.
I would raise in CO after 1 limper.

I really like to have the button with the big drawing hands, but the button may still fold anyway.. hmm..

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
Limp pf. QJs is a strong drawing hand... why scare people off? Not very strong heads-up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think a raise here is intended to get anything heads up. The question is whether it's a +EV play to raise or limp in a multiway pot with this hand. I think it's close either way, and I'd probably raise on Party .50/1 here too.

I think the rest of the play is fine. You're probably drawing dead after that 3-bet on the turn more times than you're ahead of a smaller flush, so the call on the river is fine.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

I think you played this one way too soft.

Raise pre-flop, yes.

Cap the turn, raise the river.

The other player doesn't know you have a flush, trust me. (And even if he did, he still has to beat it.)

If this is the one time in a hundred that he has a higher one, them's the breaks, but you're going to win this hand way, way, way more often than your opponent is.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really like to have the button with the big drawing hands, but the button may still fold anyway.. hmm..

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I have this argument w/ a friend all the time. He defends his button and will try to buy the button w/ marginal hands to gain the advantage.

I think this is a good plan for NL (which is what he was playing, now switching to limit), but I don't think it's a good reason for limit.

I think in limit, you have to be more concerned w/ playing your hands for what they are worth. You have a suited connector with not a lot of top-card power. These are good in multiway pots, but not very good HU.

You need a big pot to play this, why not let the blinds in?

The reason you need a big pot, is because you need to get paid off for a hand that is going to hit a flop about 15%-20% (probably wrong here) of the time. You want 4 or 5 players in the pot (at least) to pay you off for taking this risk.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

crap, I've been raising this PF in all those situations...

I also would have called the turn instead of capping.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

I think this would own a lot of hands HU, I'd love to have it.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

Raise-and re-raise on all streets.

PF Raise was good as well.

Sarge[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

You should cap the turn. If he still bets into you on the river, I can then decide whether to call or raise 1 more. I'd lean towards raising once unless I had a read suggesting otherwise.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

Thanks for the comments. A lot of heads-up comments. There were two limpers to me, not one.

UTG+1 had 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], so MHIG. I should have capped the turn. If I had the K, I'd have been more aggressive. I'll have to loosen up the wallet a bit with the 3rd nut flush.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
The other player doesn't know you have a flush, trust me. (And even if he did, he still has to beat it.)

If this is the one time in a hundred that he has a higher one, them's the breaks, but you're going to win this hand way, way, way more often than your opponent is.

[/ QUOTE ]

good to be beaten with these comments. i think i put myself in my opponent's position and figured I'd be holding Kxs or Axs as often as other flushes..

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 had 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], so MHIG. I should have capped the turn. If I had the K, I'd have been more aggressive. I'll have to loosen up the wallet a bit with the 3rd nut flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm...even after reading SSH I'm still playing too tight! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] NH, and good comments from everyone on it.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

I tend to play Q high flushes safely on the turn as you did, mainly because I always seem to remember the few times I lost to a K or A high flush, and manage to forget the many more times I didn't extract full value.

If I capped the turn and UTG+1 led on the river again, I would be inclined to just call the river bet. A cap on the turn screams a made flush, which he obviously isn't afraid of. I seem to recall reading that this is the wisest play with a Q high flush. If you had the K or A, then it's a clear re-raise/cap situation.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

to cap this turn, I think I'd have to have a read on UTG+1 as a total fartknocker. anyone know if this is weak, or is the cap with this kind of hand straight out of SSHE?

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

I would have called PF, definitely capped the turn and called the river. As long as a fourth suited card doesn't show you can figure the hand is good. Just calling on the river saves a bet just in case. In these games, I've had players raise with 2 pair on the river with a flush board more times than I can remember. Fantastic if you have the ace, a little concern if you don't but will usually be OK

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

arent capping the turn and raising the river both contingent on your 2 hole cards being the best flush?

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

wow cold cash, we seem to disagree a lot today [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] (all in the spirit of learning about poker - I definitely respect your opinion)

I would raise the turn for the reasons you state (dont worry about flush-over flush, etc) but when three bet, isn't it check and call time? unless, like I said, I know he's a total fart-knocker. (tell me I'm weak-tight)

I do think this is a raise PF. also, if you cap the turn, you gots to raise the river.

Preflop
 

Agaisnt typical opponents, this is an easy preflop raise to buy the button.

However, if there was a tough opponent limping before you, I'd lean towards call rather than raise.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

Raising pre-flop here is going to make this hand a lot easier to play.

Beside the fact that you most likely have a better hand than than the average holdings of your opponents, you get the added benefit of being able to buy the button, and also having everyone check to you on the flop. This is going to be nice when you flop a draw.

Also I think the average Party microlimit player will raise the turn in this situation with a bunch of hands our hero is ahead of. Sometimes he will have a higher flush, but most of the time he'll be raising 2-pair or a flush draw. Add to that the times that he does have a flush, but a lower one, and I'm capping.

On the river I would be fine with 3-bets going in, so that's why I say raise. I'd start to worry about a bigger flush when I get 3-bet on the river, but not before.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
Limp pf. QJs is a strong drawing hand... why scare people off? Not very strong heads-up.

[/ QUOTE ]

he's in the CO, time to stop worrying about scaring off people that aren't there and start worrying about building up the pot with a hand that is gonna win more than its fair share.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

Preflop - goot

Flop - Standard

Turn - I cap. If he has a better flush so be it. You have position, so it will likely only cost you one more bet unless he is tricky enough to go for a river check-raise.

River - Nothing changed between here and the turn so if you called there you should call here.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
Cap the turn, raise the river.

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I think this is half right.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

Shoot, I'll take 1 outta 2.

That's quite a bit better than I normally do. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cap the turn, raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is half right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Cap the turn, raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is half right.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm confused.

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cap the turn, call the river if bet into.

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

I guess I'm confused because if I'm going to cap the turn, why not raise the river when a blank hits?

maybe him betting into me even after the turn cap would be a stronger indication (stronger than a turn three bet) that he has the A or the K flush? Thats about the only reason I can think of to only call the river after a turn cap

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

Preflop raise is good, punishing weak limpers, gaining position, getting dead money in (blinds), real good.

Flop: Fine

River: Well, you made your hand, you have the 3rd nut, fcking raise and re-raise.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Re: QJs in the CO - questions PF and on the Turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm confused because if I'm going to cap the turn, why not raise the river when a blank hits?

maybe him betting into me even after the turn cap would be a stronger indication (stronger than a turn three bet) that he has the A or the K flush? Thats about the only reason I can think of to only call the river after a turn cap

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yes, nothing changed from the turn to the river. in these situations, you need to decide how many bets you are comfortable putting in. with our position, we can get 4 (as I did), 5 (cap turn, call river), or 7 (raise river, get 3-bet).

you can't choose 6 (unless you fold, which you won't) since you have no control over his option to 3-bet the river. so the choice is between 5 and 7.