What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

I take the view that taxation is nothing more than theft. Those that do not take this view argue that it is not theft because the property that is taken is used for my own benefit, as well as that of others. So what is the difference between these two scenarios from a moral standpoint?

Scenario 1) I'm forced to pay taxes against my will. The taxes are used for the benefit of the whole community.

Scenario 2) Someone breaks into my house and steals my bankroll. The money is donated to the local school for the benefit of the whole community.

Discuss. <font color="white">I'm pretty sure i know the answer I'm going to get, but this should be a good jumping off point for a discussion. </font>

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

1. You are forced to pay taxes because the government says you have to. If you do not like the way your tax system works, your best bet is to move to a state that fits you better. The taxes you do pay do benefit your entire community though. They build better schools for our next generation, help the needy(one thing I am not too big on), and allow us to fight for our freedom.

2. As for someone stealing your BR and donating it to a school, well that is just plain ridiculous. What thief brakes an entry to steal money to just givr away. Most people would just ask for a donation, dont you think. If someone were to break into your house, though, this government you pay taxes to allows us to own fire arms.
Shoot the b@$t@rd!

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

So why shouldn't it be ok to shoot a government representative that comes to my house to try to collect taxes? I don't want to give him the taxes. He's trying to forcefullytake them (ir. throw me in jail if I don't pay). How is that morally any different from say a gang of armed criminals coming to my house to take my money and give it to a "worthy" cause that benefits the community?

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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If you do not like the way your tax system works, your best bet is to move to a state that fits you better.

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If there's a bully at school that steals your lunchmoney and gives you wedgies, your best bet is to move to a school with no bullies.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

Why do you believe you don't benefit?

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

Scenario 2 is simply what will happen if you don't pay your taxes in scenario 1.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

Scenario 1) You live in America. If you want to live in America, you have to pay your taxes (think of it like membership dues). If you don't want to pay your taxes, leave.

Scenario 2) You don't have any allegiance to the thief for which you would have to pay anything, so this is criminal.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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Why do you believe you don't benefit?

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Where did I say I don't benefit? That's not the point at all.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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Scenario 2 is simply what will happen if you don't pay your taxes in scenario 1.

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No, what will happen if I don't pay my taxes is that a gang of government-sponsored thugs will either extract the money under threat of violence or kidnap me.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

Where does the money that pays you jarheads come from?

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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Where did I say I don't benefit? That's not the point at al

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So you want all the benefits of living in a stable, complex, industralised country but you don't want to pay for it?

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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Scenario 2 is simply what will happen if you don't pay your taxes in scenario 1.

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No, what will happen if I don't pay my taxes is that a gang of government-sponsored thugs will either extract the money under threat of violence or kidnap me.

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Right, the same way that a bunch of government-sponsored thugs will extract money from you if you don't pay child support, or kidnap you if you rob a bank?

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

So, I guess you are deliberately trying to muddle the legitimate efforts of many to keep taxes low. We are all part of this society and we get to elect our gov'mint. We should elect those who will let us live our lives with the minimum taxes we can get by with for the legitimate needs of the society.

As part of that society you should pay your share, or go to jail (or pay big fines) if you try to avoid your share. What you "feel about" taxes doesn't really matter to me.

What matters: Keeping taxes low for all of us.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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As part of that society you should pay your share, or go to jail (or pay big fines) if you try to avoid your share. What you "feel about" taxes doesn't really matter to me.

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I'm going to build a fence and plant some trees. Since this will beautify the area (according to *my* definition), everyone else on the street will benefit from it. Therefore, everyone else on the street better pay their share (which I will determine for them) or else they will get a boot to the head. If they don't like it, they can move.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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As part of that society you should pay your share, or go to jail (or pay big fines) if you try to avoid your share. What you "feel about" taxes doesn't really matter to me.

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I'm going to build a fence and plant some trees. Since this will beautify the area (according to *my* definition), everyone else on the street will benefit from it. Therefore, everyone else on the street better pay their share (which I will determine for them) or else they will get a boot to the head. If they don't like it, they can move.

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You quoted my second paragraph. Now read my first paragraph.

There are towns that do just what you suggest. We need to vote out those stupid politicians.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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I take the view that taxation is nothing more than theft

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No you don't. You pretend that you do to try to sound tough about taxes.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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You quoted my second paragraph. Now read my first paragraph.

There are towns that do just what you suggest. We need to vote out those stupid politicians.

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And then what? Put in some other stupid politicians that will do the same thing? Those politicians were elected, were they not? You first claim that their election gives them legitimacy, then complain about what they do with their office?

You don't see that the problem isn't the particular "stupid politicians" that are in office at any given time, but rather with the system that allows and encourages them to do stupid stuff and steal your money and spend it on their own pet projects?

If your answer is "we just need to elect smarter politicians" what you're really just saying is "we just need to elect people that do what *I* want, anyone that does what some other guy wants is 'stupid'".

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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Right, the same way that a bunch of government-sponsored thugs will extract money from you if you don't pay child support, or kidnap you if you rob a bank?

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When you rob a bank, you are initiating force against another. When you refuse to pay taxes, you're resisting the government's initiation of force against you.

Is shooting someone in cold blood the same as shooting someone that's attacking you with an axe?

A Country Without Taxes = Dead Country
 

If a country does not have taxes then it will eventually die…..probably by an invasion by a neighboring totalitarian regime. This is history talking…..not me.

Taxes are more “protection money” than theft. It provides the funding to control crime and violence. Also when you travel overseas, your govt provides a certain amount of protection as well. Back in the days of the Roman Empire, a Roman citizen who found himself in trouble just had to utter the words, “I’m a Roman Citizen” and this was enough to get him/her out of trouble.

The best goal we can hope for is low taxes.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

The typical cause of taxes is mutual benefit through government intervention. The typical cause of theft is personal need. Assuming that the same amount is being taken in both scenarios, the end is the same...scenario 2 is just terribly unrealistic.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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Right, the same way that a bunch of government-sponsored thugs will extract money from you if you don't pay child support, or kidnap you if you rob a bank?

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When you rob a bank, you are initiating force against another. When you refuse to pay taxes, you're resisting the government's initiation of force against you.

Is shooting someone in cold blood the same as shooting someone that's attacking you with an axe?

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So are you saying that because you don't agree with a law, you have the right to break it?

I'm sure NAMBLA would love you.

Re: A Country Without Taxes = Dead Country
 

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If a country does not have taxes then it will eventually die…..probably by an invasion by a neighboring totalitarian regime. This is history talking…..not me.

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There are ways of buying defense services without forced taxation (insurance and financial vehicles). It's a need just like anything else, and the market can fill it.

Food is a very important need, probably more important than defense, yet people can see that there's no need to nationalize its production and delivery.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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So are you saying that because you don't agree with a law, you have the right to break it?

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No. I am, however, definitely saying that laws are not inherently sacred and unquestionable.

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I'm sure NAMBLA would love you.

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Good tactic. If you can't match your opponent, call him a child molester.

Re: A Country Without Taxes = Dead Country
 

pvn,

Who pays for it then? How do the services differ for those who choose to pay and those who do not? If everyone but me agreed to pay for defense, how is another country going to invade my property but not yours? What about when more people wise up and stop paying?

This is much different than food. If I don't get food, I starve. I can't stop paying for food and still be fed by others.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

The difference is, you'll go to jail if you evade #1 but you'll be a hero if you evade #2.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

BTW, I noticed that the picture on your icon appears to be that of a soldier.

Do you also believe that taxation for the purpose of paying for military expenditures/adventures is theft as well?

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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Scenario 2) Someone breaks into my house and steals my bankroll. The money is donated to the local school for the benefit of the whole community.



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Robber 1: Hey man, you sure these people are on vacation?
Robber 2: Yes, I'm sure.
Robber 1: And you can bypass the alarm?
Robber 2: Yeah, don't worry about it. I'm telling you this is gonna be our biggest score yet.
Robber 1: Man, I can't wait to donate this money.

Re: A Country Without Taxes = Dead Country
 

[ QUOTE ]
pvn,

Who pays for it then? How do the services differ for those who choose to pay and those who do not? If everyone but me agreed to pay for defense, how is another country going to invade my property but not yours? What about when more people wise up and stop paying?


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Good question. I would add what if one person has all or a vast majority of the money? What if he says he'll pay for the protection of all, and if not he'll let the others invade? What if he decides that his money equals power and wants control over those with no wherewithal to stop him?
What if he uses his money for a propaganda campaigns?

PVN is right, anarcho-capitalist isn't a utopia. It's a dystopia. I'd much rather submit to the government "gun to my head" than to the invisible hand grasping dollar bills and wiping the greed-induced drool from his invisible lips.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

I work at a VA hospital. I can guarantee you that there are ways in which tax dollars do a lot of good. The idea that a complex society can be run without some form of taxation is naive.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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I work at a VA hospital. I can guarantee you that there are ways in which tax dollars do a lot of good. The idea that a complex society can be run without some form of taxation is naive.

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Why stop at the VA hospital, why not nationalize all hospitals? And banks... and oil companies... The money will be used for good!

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I work at a VA hospital. I can guarantee you that there are ways in which tax dollars do a lot of good. The idea that a complex society can be run without some form of taxation is naive.

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Why stop at the VA hospital, why not nationalize all hospitals? And banks... and oil companies... The money will be used for good!

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I agree. I realize you are not advocating that sort of change but then again I am of a different political persuasion.

However, for those who would do away with taxes completely-How do you run a modern society such as that in any western country.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

1% tarriff on anything coming into or out of this country. Should be able to pay for a military.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

So, in fact you are in favour of some sort of government collection of money that would be distributed at their discretion.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

Scenario 1) The taxes are taken by a govt. established by a vote of the people, and run by people who are elected by a vote of the people. The money is spent by those same people who have to be periodically re-elected by a vote of the people.

Scenario 2) You have no voice in who breaks into your house. You have no voice in how much they take. You have no voice in who they donate the money too.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Scenario 1) The taxes are taken by a govt. established by a vote of the people, and run by people who are elected by a vote of the people. The money is spent by those same people who have to be periodically re-elected by a vote of the people.

Scenario 2) You have no voice in who breaks into your house. You have no voice in how much they take. You have no voice in who they donate the money too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you clearly aren't a Macho-Man, allow me to explain why Scenario 2 is inconceivable to the "NO TAXES! IT'S STEALING!" crowd:

No one would EVER DARE cross paths with these no-government-tough guys, because without the government, no one would be able to feminize them, and tell them which guns (and other defense machinery) they can and can't buy.

Ergo, these warriors will arms themselves to the hilt to protect hearth and home, and ain't no one ever gonna' try to break into their house, lest they have to deal with them, and their heavily armed and defended home.

Long story short, real men don't need the government -- and taking taxes from a real man is tantamount to cutting off his penis, because it’s just your typical girly-type thieving, which takes a man’s hard earned cash and doles it out to lazy bums who don’t do man’s work, and who don’t do what’s necessary to take care of their family (which real men do).

Re: A Country Without Taxes = Dead Country
 

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pvn,

Who pays for it then? How do the services differ for those who choose to pay and those who do not? If everyone but me agreed to pay for defense, how is another country going to invade my property but not yours? What about when more people wise up and stop paying?


[/ QUOTE ]

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http://www.mises.org/journals/scholar/Murphy6.pdf

"The existence of the insurance and call option markets ensure that the standard zero defense outcome cannot be a market equilibrium."

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Good question. I would add what if one person has all or a vast majority of the money? What if he says he'll pay for the protection of all, and if not he'll let the others invade? What if he decides that his money equals power and wants control over those with no wherewithal to stop him?
What if he uses his money for a propaganda campaigns?

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What if that happens in a state-dominated system? Geez, if you're going to come up with a fantasyland edge case, at least come up with one that doesn't break down in a statist system, too.

How is someone going to obtain the "vast majority of money" anyway?

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

Did anyone read what was posed here? This thread was not about why taxes do or do not have to occur. It was about how are these two scenarios different.

Saying we have to tax to provide govt. services is no different than saying a poor person has to steal to survive. That's all the govt. is doing; perpetuating itself through theft.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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Where does the money that pays you jarheads come from?

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This thread is not about where it comes from. I know where it comes from. That doesn't make it right.

But if govt. services were cut back to only providing for the common defense, some federal law enforcement, and a few others, those could be paid for by an inflation tax, which although it is a form of taxation is at least spread equally and does not involve the govt. demanding the money directly.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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I take the view that taxation is nothing more than theft

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No you don't. You pretend that you do to try to sound tough about taxes.

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This is very unlike you, Mr. Blues. Your arguments are normally well thought out, this one is not. It is a bad one-liner that I suppose you thought was clever, but is really just dumb. You do not know me or my beliefs, and in this case you're just wrong.

Re: What is the difference betwwen these two scenarios?
 

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Saying we have to tax to provide govt. services is no different than saying a poor person has to steal to survive. That's all the govt. is doing; perpetuating itself through theft.

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But for the fact that the people have agreed to the existence of the government and its needs to support itself both in the establishment of the constitution and in the election of individuals who have created our laws. Taxes are part of a social compact that we have made (or at least our predecessors have made.) I really don't know what to tell you if you can't (or pretend you can't) see the difference.

Essentially, we get the government that we've asked for. The fact that you hold a minority position and can't get the government to change is part of living in a democratic republic.