is this legal to do?
 

can i show my two hole cards during play?

if there is much money in the pot and there has been a reraise and many calls that one and I GO ALL IN with A,A.
I dont wanna play 2 or more opps, I am satisfied with the money in the pot allready SO I SHOW MY ACES when i pushes all my chips in - is this legal to do? I prob will be beaten by someone if it turns out to be a multipot, so i try to scare them.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

No..its not allowed (at least at any normal card room) and rightly so. You might kill action for another player who might want the callers.

No good player is going to fold even if you DO show your cards, if he has the correct odds to hang around...and it sounds like he might.

Youre a favorite anyway, even if its only slight. You don't want them to fold.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
You don't want them to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I do! And very much also [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: is this legal to do?
 

Just announce that you have aces.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

so I can't just flip them over?
would i be out of the pot or whole tournament if I do that?

Re: is this legal to do?
 

First time you would probably get a warning. Its a cheap ploy though and not really fit to be discussed. Play your cards correctly and stop trying to cheat the system. Push them out of the pot with a bet, not some pathetic ploy

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You don't want them to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I do! And very much also [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless this is a tournament, at the final table or near the bubble, you shouldn't want them to fold.

Exposing your hand at any time during a tournament will subject you to a penalty in most places. In a cash game, you will have done your opponents a favor so anyone who complains is a moron.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

As far as I know, if you turn up one or more of your hole cards, your hand is dead and you're out of this pot. There aren't a whole lot of offenses like this that will forfeit the tournament for you.

This rule isn't universal, but it's pretty close -- the National Heads-up Poker Championship allowed you to show your cards, but being heads-up, that's a little different.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
First time you would probably get a warning. Its a cheap ploy though and not really fit to be discussed. Play your cards correctly and stop trying to cheat the system. Push them out of the pot with a bet, not some pathetic ploy

[/ QUOTE ]

if it is legal it is part of the game as much as any other legal action. So IF legal why should it be considered a cheap ploy?

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
First time you would probably get a warning. Its a cheap ploy though and not really fit to be discussed. Play your cards correctly and stop trying to cheat the system. Push them out of the pot with a bet, not some pathetic ploy

[/ QUOTE ]

if it is legal it is part of the game as much as any other legal action. So IF legal why should it be considered a cheap ploy?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because its not legal... although the first offense would likely only get a warning. Its pretty tough to get thrown out of a tournament.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

good question. true answer: it depends on the individual casino.

i know this because i do it. most recently, i was at the MIRAGE in vegas. i did it. the floorman said if i did it again, my hand would be forfeit.

the point-- ask the floorman if they allow it.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

Here's the thing though - if its preflop there is NO reason that you want ANYONE folding... unless you dont like money... in which case you shouldnt be playing. If its post flop and I am your opponent, I am calling the floor and getting the hand ruled dead because you just ruined MY pot that I was going to take from both you and the people that were dumb enough to call you.

What is the reasoning behind wanting people out of the pot when you have the best hand?

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the thing though - if its preflop there is NO reason that you want ANYONE folding... unless you dont like money... in which case you shouldnt be playing. If its post flop and I am your opponent, I am calling the floor and getting the hand ruled dead because you just ruined MY pot that I was going to take from both you and the people that were dumb enough to call you.

What is the reasoning behind wanting people out of the pot when you have the best hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Barry Tanenbaum has an article in the latest CardPlayer magazine about this. The article discusses "prospect theory," which states people have a tendency to favor a sure win (getting everyone to fold to an AA push) over a gamble for a bigger amount (getting everyone to call), even if the gamble has a higher EV than taking the sure thing. Although it makes no sense from a logical perspective, it is a very strong tendency in a lot of people. This may be what is what is motivating the OP here.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

Very Very Very Very Very Very bad move, legal or not. Showing Aces pre-flop is a very poor poker play in Hold'em.

If a player behind you is holding Kings or Queens and you show the Aces as you push, what kind of money do you think you will get compared to not showing your hand?

I hate to criticize but if you can't stand loosing money, maybe shouldn't be playing poker in the first place.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

definitely poor taste. It is proivdes your opponents inforamtion on cards left in the deck which improves there decsions making which could hurt you and the other players.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

Legal? Depends on the venue.

Stupid? Everywhere.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
What is the reasoning behind wanting people out of the pot when you have the best hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because my hand will not prob hold up against 3 opps.
The pot is so big that i am satisfied with just these chips.
Less is more [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
good question. true answer: it depends on the individual casino.

i know this because i do it. most recently, i was at the MIRAGE in vegas. i did it. the floorman said if i did it again, my hand would be forfeit.

the point-- ask the floorman if they allow it.


[/ QUOTE ]

cool to have at least one supporting me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

it doesn't really matter what other thinks, to me it makes sense to do this card flip. specially in a tournament with a high enter fee or a cash game pot with alot of chips in it.

if you cant settle with less than ALL, you most of the time will fall [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What is the reasoning behind wanting people out of the pot when you have the best hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because my hand will not prob hold up against 3 opps.
The pot is so big that i am satisfied with just these chips.
Less is more [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Except no, less is less. And how many opponents do you expect to call your all in raise after a bet and raise?

Seriously - you need to reevaluate your play because this is just stupid.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
good question. true answer: it depends on the individual casino.

i know this because i do it. most recently, i was at the MIRAGE in vegas. i did it. the floorman said if i did it again, my hand would be forfeit.

the point-- ask the floorman if they allow it.


[/ QUOTE ]

cool to have at least one supporting me [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

it doesn't really matter what other thinks, to me it makes sense to do this card flip. specially in a tournament with a high enter fee or a cash game pot with alot of chips in it.

if you cant settle with less than ALL, you most of the time will fall [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

If you did this in a tournament, even if I was going to fold, I'd have the floor on you in a second.

Did you read TOP? Isnt the principal idea that if you play your hand like you would if you knew my cards a winning play?

Why give your opponents ALL the information he needs to know? There are times where showing your AA would actually make sense for your opponent to call you anyway?

My point here - do what you want. I hope you get reprimanded and your aces mucked. Only bad players have to rely on cheating.

Doyle Brunson in SS
 

Out of interest, is it legal when in the position that Doyle Brunson describes in SuperSystem? Basically, you are down to being the only player left to act - calling all-in bets. Is it legal to flip your cards over at that point in order to see how your opponents react? Would such a flip ever be deemed a call?

Re: is this legal to do?
 

According to the TDA, which my poker room uses for official rules:
---------------------------------------------
7 Penalties A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, if a card(s) goes off the table, if soft-play occurs, or similar incidents take place. Penalties WILL be invoked in cases of abuse, disruptive behavior, or similar incidents.
---------------------------------------------
35 Expose A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.
---------------------------------------------

This means crap for cash games, that is up to local rules.


As for the whole "you're an idiot"/"maximize EV"/"My God this is so stupid" replies, I completely disagree. While you are not maximizing expected profit on the hand, you are indeed maximizing your own personal utility. Sometimes EV decisions are not all that matter in life.

Example to those giving him a hard time: Would you be willing to risk your entire life savings for a 1-in-1000 shot at something that pays 1001-to-1, simply because it is EV?

Diminishing marginal utility, risk-aversion -- these are not concepts for idiots, but for realists.

Re: Doyle Brunson in SS
 

[ QUOTE ]
Out of interest, is it legal when in the position that Doyle Brunson describes in SuperSystem? Basically, you are down to being the only player left to act - calling all-in bets. Is it legal to flip your cards over at that point in order to see how your opponents react? Would such a flip ever be deemed a call?

[/ QUOTE ]

No - that has the same effect as a string bet - gaining additional information. If you do that your hand will be ruled dead.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
As for the whole "you're an idiot"/"maximize EV"/"My God this is so stupid" replies, I completely disagree. While you are not maximizing expected profit on the hand, you are indeed maximizing your own personal utility. Sometimes EV decisions are not all that matter in life.

Example to those giving him a hard time: Would you be willing to risk your entire life savings for a 1-in-1000 shot at something that pays 1001-to-1, simply because it is EV?


[/ QUOTE ]

We arent talking about life savings. We're talking about a poker tournament where there pretty much are NO better places to get your money all in. Preflop AA is an 87% favorite over the BEST possible holding (JTs where the As dont have a matching suit).

So yes - he is an idiot. And frankly, I want people like him and you at my table... because if you are going to play scared, I am going to make you pay for it. If you have to have the ultimate nuts to put your money in the pot, you are never going to win anything.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
We arent talking about life savings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, you missed my point completely.

I used life savings as an extreme example of where risk-aversion exceeds marginal utility for most people. For this individual , that point occurs much less than at life savings.

[ QUOTE ]

And frankly, I want people like him and you at my table...


[/ QUOTE ]

Strike two. I said I understood him, not that I would act like him.

An example hand (numbers generated from Poker Stove)

Order of hands...
KK, AA, QQ, 56s, JTs

KK goes all-in, AA calls and shows hand to players
QQ, 56s, JTs all fold.
81% of the time AA wins, ExProfit of $62

KK goes all-in, AA calls and DOES NOT show
QQ will call.
56s will (correctly) call.
JTs will/will not call depending on the player.

If JTs folds, AA wins 45% ExProfit of $80
If JTs calls, AA wins 36% ExProfit of $80

Now, I understand that you are smart and +EV decisions are all that matter and you are the greatest poker player ever, etc.

But what if this was the end of a tournament. What if this was the last hand of the night for you? What if ______? Would you sacrifice 80% equity for 36% equity just to make an extra $18 bucks in expected profit? I just hope you can see how a rational human could hold a different opinion in this matter.


[ QUOTE ]
I am going to make [him] pay for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. His aversion, once learned, is easily exploitable. The tactic that initially cut down his variance will possibly be the leak that breaks him. If you are doing this every time you get AA, then you are probably playing above your head. You clearly want to play at a limit where risk-avoidance strategies are RARELY an option.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

I get what you are saying - but the way I think... and the way that most people around these parts seem to thing - is that if you dont push the edges that you have you are not playing up to your potential.

AA comes around on average, once every 169 hands. Thats 3+ hours at a live table. How many better chances do you expect to get? In tournament poker, there is no way you are winning a tourney without being all in at least a few times. Are you playing to make in into the money or are you playing to win the whole thing?

According to both Harrington and Gorden, playing to win and not just to money is the ONLY way to play. I tend to think they know what they are talking about.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Example to those giving him a hard time: Would you be willing to risk your entire life savings for a 1-in-1000 shot at something that pays 1001-to-1, simply because it is EV?

Diminishing marginal utility, risk-aversion -- these are not concepts for idiots, but for realists.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, they are concepts for realist, but they just don't apply here. Playing aces all-in against two opponents is still about a 67% to 71% favorite (and could be higher if they're sharing a card or holding an ace). That's down from being about an 82% favorite heads up.

For the sake of using round numbers let's sum it up this way -- you're calling taking an 80% chance at winning two units instead of a 70% chance of winning 3 units "risk aversion"??

Re: is this legal to do?
 

Odds of being dealt AA are actually 220 to 1 and AA is a 78% favorite over JT suited, not 87%. Not trying to be an ass.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Odds of being dealt AA are actually 220 to 1 and AA is a 78% favorite over JT suited, not 87%. Not trying to be an ass.

[/ QUOTE ] yeah - I knew the 78% - just mistyped that. THe AA, all I did was take the total number of unique hand types. Didnt bother to figure in that there are only half as many ways to make PPs as there is offsuit non-matched cards.

Good catch.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
According to the TDA, which my poker room uses for official rules:
---------------------------------------------
7 Penalties A penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending, if a card(s) goes off the table, if soft-play occurs, or similar incidents take place. Penalties WILL be invoked in cases of abuse, disruptive behavior, or similar incidents.
---------------------------------------------
35 Expose A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.
---------------------------------------------

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe TDA makes an exception when the tournament (not the hand but the entire tournament) becomes heads-up. In cash games the rule is mostly to prevent killing other people's action, but in tournaments there is also the factor of collusion. Neither of these is a concern heads-up.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop AA is a 78% favorite over the BEST possible holding (JTs where the As dont have a matching suit).

[/ QUOTE ]

FTR, JTs is not the best possible hand in this spot. A slightly better hand is something like 65s. Of course, that means aces go from a 78% favorite to a 77% favorite, so it doesn't matter that much anyway...

Re: is this legal to do?
 

Oh right - because two of the possible straight cards are gone already. Therefor wouldnt 78s be the best because no straight involved would help his AA? Or would 56s, 67s and 78s all be the same?

Not like that half percent makes that much difference in the short term.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I prob will be beaten by someone (with AA) if it turns out to be a multipot, so i try to scare them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

215,979 games 179.765 secs 1,201 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 30.9036 % 30.70% 00.21% { AA }
Hand 2: 07.6864 % 06.90% 00.79% { random }
Hand 3: 07.5952 % 06.80% 00.80% { random }
Hand 4: 07.6991 % 06.90% 00.79% { random }
Hand 5: 07.7020 % 06.91% 00.79% { random }
Hand 6: 07.6367 % 06.85% 00.78% { random }
Hand 7: 07.6649 % 06.88% 00.78% { random }
Hand 8: 07.7399 % 06.95% 00.79% { random }
Hand 9: 07.6923 % 06.93% 00.76% { random }
Hand 10: 07.6799 % 06.88% 00.80% { random }

Any hand is obviously more likely to lose vs more hands, so i ran a short PS sim with AA vs 9 random hands. You need greater than 10% pot equity to call ten handed. With aces you have 30% vs ten random hands. with kings the figure drops so somewhere around 25% vs ten random calls, making that a correct call also based on pot equity and EV.

And I think risk management is a silly thing to talk about. Getting it all in with aces 3-4 handed is +++++++++EV, nothing close to betting 1:1000 on a 1:1001 shot.

aces=never fold pf

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Oh right - because two of the possible straight cards are gone already. Therefor wouldnt 78s be the best because no straight involved would help his AA? Or would 56s, 67s and 78s all be the same?

Not like that half percent makes that much difference in the short term.

[/ QUOTE ]

Splitting hairs territory, but 65s and 76s are probably better than 78s because they counterfeit the 5-high wheel straight that AA can make.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh right - because two of the possible straight cards are gone already. Therefor wouldnt 78s be the best because no straight involved would help his AA? Or would 56s, 67s and 78s all be the same?

Not like that half percent makes that much difference in the short term.

[/ QUOTE ]

Splitting hairs territory, but 65s and 76s are probably better than 78s because they counterfeit the 5-high wheel straight that AA can make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hand 1: 76.9675 % 76.81% 00.16% { AcAd }
Hand 2: 23.0325 % 22.87% 00.16% { 7h6h }

Hand 1: 76.9791 % 76.83% 00.15% { AcAd }
Hand 2: 23.0209 % 22.87% 00.15% { 8s7s }

Hand 1: 76.9440 % 76.76% 00.19% { AcAd }
Hand 2: 23.0560 % 22.87% 00.19% { 6s5s }

Only a rounding error difference in the 3. Although you get .07% ties with the 65s

Re: is this legal to do?
 

As in poker the answer is always..."IT DEPENDS"

Tournament: The TDA rules are pretty specific, if you expose your hand it's dead.

Cash game: IT DEPENDS.

If there is action still pending, or it's not heads up it's bad etiquette to show your hand even if you just show 1 card.

There are still people in the pot, let's say you toss an ace and the raiser has kings. Now the guy in the cut off with A/J now realises he's drawing to at best only two more aces so he folds costing the player with kings money.

IT DEPENDS PART 2:
Heads up. when it's heads up, some poker rooms allow this.
I've done it in live NL games before to guage the reaction of a player who has reraised me on the flop, or put me all in.

IT DEPENDS PART 3:
House rules. Every casino has their own set of rules.

IT DEPENDS PART 4:
The floorman on duty.
As we all know, you can play in the same casino day in and day out and get different decisions by the same floorman let alone different floormen on different shifts.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
And I think risk management is a silly thing to talk about. Getting it all in with aces 3-4 handed is +++++++++EV, nothing close to betting 1:1000 on a 1:1001 shot.

aces=never fold pf

[/ QUOTE ]

In a tournament, +chipEV and +$EV aren't always the same thing. You could contrive a final-table situation in which it could be correct to fold aces pf, or where you would want your opponents to fold if you have AA.

This isn't that relevant to the initial post because these situations are so absurdly rare that if you don't already know enough about ICM to know what these situations are, then you're better off not thinking about it. But it is theoretically possible.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

Yeah i was referring to cash, but I understand the concept for tournament play also. However, I still don't think I'd be able to lay down aces pf even for all my chips until I have a lot more experience and confidence in my ability to outplay my opponents.

I believe HoH may have covered this situation, but also stated (or maybe I read somewhere else) that only top players that sure of their skill prevailing in the long run should make such a fold preflop.

Either way, I can't see myself folding aces EVER preflop. If thats a leak, so be it. LOL.

Steve

Re: Doyle Brunson in SS
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Out of interest, is it legal when in the position that Doyle Brunson describes in SuperSystem? Basically, you are down to being the only player left to act - calling all-in bets. Is it legal to flip your cards over at that point in order to see how your opponents react? Would such a flip ever be deemed a call?

[/ QUOTE ]

No - that has the same effect as a string bet - gaining additional information. If you do that your hand will be ruled dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly, when SS was written, this was a perfectly acceptable play. Now, in most cardrooms and all tournament play, this is illegal. Even where it isn't illegal, its considered unethical.

Re: is this legal to do?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tournament: The TDA rules are pretty specific, if you expose your hand it's dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really!? I guess I must be an idiot. Plese explain the following TDA rule. Because I am confused.

35 Expose A player who exposes his cards during the play may incur a penalty, but will not have his hand killed.

Thanks!