15/30 QTs flop
 

The cold caller is a super bad 49/7/.57/.96/1.92 and his wtsd is an amazing 50.07%. The 3-bettor is 17.8/10.65/2.84 whose stats are from mining 10/20.

After talking on AIM with some people, I'm receiving mixed signals on the correct line here.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: I am MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, I call, CO calls.

Flop: (10.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

little early to be raising QTs. As for the flop, I am ok leading or check/calling, but not chk/rzing.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

I think a passive line is best here. I don't think you have enough fold equity in this pot do do much other than check and call.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

Key factors:

1. You're getting to the river here obviously.
2. About half of villain's range is probably made up of pairs that are overpairs to that board and kill many of your pair outs, and those hands are never folding.
3. Some of the time villain has an unpaired big card hand (AK, AQ).
4. Folding out the button's big card hand is not that valuable because of the presence of the cold-caller. Our Q high has little showdown value even against him and so the value of folding the three-bettor is basically just to clean up some pair outs some of the time. (We only get huge benefits by getting him to fold exactly AQ).


The conclusion of all this is that I don't think there's much merit in a super-aggressive line here aimed at trying to buy outs or fold equity. For such a line to be valid, we need to parlay the fact that button does not have an overpair and the fact that this is the 1 out of 2 times where the donkey won't go to showdown.

Since that's no good, getting aggressive here is just likely to cost bets as we're out of position.

So I check-call the flop and check-call the turn.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
little early to be raising QTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, maybe it's a little early for you, but i play probably play alot better than you after the flop... when you analyze a hand i post, remember to pretend you play effing good postflop. thx.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
little early to be raising QTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, maybe it's a little early for you, but i play probably play alot better than you after the flop... when you analyze a hand i post, remember to pretend you play effing good postflop. thx.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like this response.

i say check call all the way and checkraise when you hit your flush.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
little early to be raising QTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, maybe it's a little early for you, but i play probably play alot better than you after the flop... when you analyze a hand i post, remember to pretend you play effing good postflop. thx.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like this response.

i say check call all the way and checkraise when you hit your flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should be betting the river if we hit the flush on the river. We get the donkey overcall in the middle when we hit, and villain is going to have AK and AQ often enough that the river getting checked through is a very real possibility. I was considering saying that we should check-raise if big cards hit the turn or river as villain is now more likely to have improved his AK or AQ, but the converse of that is that villain is now dangerously likely to check behind hands like TT and JJ.

If the relative position were flipped and our chance of trapping the donkey for single bets twice were higher I might prefer the river check-raise.

If we hit on the turn I think I probably like a check-raise as we're more likely to get action from both opponents on our check-raise and the turn is much less likely to check through.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
little early to be raising QTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, maybe it's a little early for you, but i play probably play alot better than you after the flop... when you analyze a hand i post, remember to pretend you play effing good postflop. thx.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like this response.

i say check call all the way and checkraise when you hit your flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we should be betting the river if we hit the flush on the river. We get the donkey overcall in the middle when we hit, and villain is going to have AK and AQ often enough that the river getting checked through is a very real possibility. I was considering saying that we should check-raise if big cards hit the turn or river as villain is now more likely to have improved his AK or AQ, but the converse of that is that villain is now dangerously likely to check behind hands like TT and JJ.

If the relative position were flipped and our chance of trapping the donkey for single bets twice were higher I might prefer the river check-raise.

If we hit on the turn I think I probably like a check-raise as we're more likely to get action from both opponents on our check-raise and the turn is much less likely to check through.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree. jason should bet when he his his flush.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

trying to push this guy off his hand would be spewing. just use your pot odds to see the river. he ain't folding.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

Put me in with everyone else in that check/calling is best. I dunno if you're really undecided about this but if he's raising &lt; 11% of his hands I doubt AQ is an autoraise there and the board is raggedy enough such that he's rarely folding anything.

Also, I think check/call &gt; check/raise &gt; bet/whatever &gt; check/fold.

15/30 QTs turn
 

Okay, I'm glad to see there is unanimous decision with my chosen line. I saw there was already discussion about how to play if I hit. Here we go.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: I am MP2 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">I raise</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, I call, CO calls.

Flop: (10.66 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
I check, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, I call, CO calls.

Turn: (6.83 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>

Re: 15/30 QTs turn
 

I'd bet because CO is in the middle, I don't want him to check behind with AK/AQ, he'll raise with a good portion of his holdings so I can 3bet.

Re: 15/30 QTs turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd bet because CO is in the middle, I don't want him to check behind with AK/AQ, he'll raise with a good portion of his holdings so I can 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

I'd lead and 3-bet if CO calls and Button raises. I don't think cr'ing gets you all that much equity from cleaning up any outs against the CO and it would really suck to lose him from contributing big bets when you hit.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
little early to be raising QTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, maybe it's a little early for you, but i play probably play alot better than you after the flop... when you analyze a hand i post, remember to pretend you play effing good postflop. thx.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be a dick, Jason, you clearly don't play effing good postflop or else you wouldn't be posting so many hands here. You're too loose PF. We've seen it time and again. QTs is good for an open-raise CO. HJ is debatable.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

I raise it UTG in 6max, limp it earlier in full tables...you don't open QTs till the CO? I open Q9o there...

P.S. I suck at cards

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
little early to be raising QTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, maybe it's a little early for you, but i play probably play alot better than you after the flop... when you analyze a hand i post, remember to pretend you play effing good postflop. thx.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be a dick, Jason, you clearly don't play effing good postflop or else you wouldn't be posting so many hands here. You're too loose PF. We've seen it time and again. QTs is good for an open-raise CO. HJ is debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe Tall is a tool and I'm too loose preflop. You seriously need to work on your reads.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
little early to be raising QTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, maybe it's a little early for you, but i play probably play alot better than you after the flop... when you analyze a hand i post, remember to pretend you play effing good postflop. thx.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be a dick, Jason, you clearly don't play effing good postflop or else you wouldn't be posting so many hands here. You're too loose PF. We've seen it time and again. QTs is good for an open-raise CO. HJ is debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]

HJ is debatable? My god. I was just about to make a post in a different one of jason's threads that he is too tight/passive. (gonna go make that post now [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img])

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
I raise it UTG in 6max, limp it earlier in full tables...you don't open QTs till the CO? I open Q9o there...

P.S. I suck at cards

[/ QUOTE ]

Q9 is a bit low on the spectrum in any position 10 handed, cept the button. I'd like to hear more on this.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
little early to be raising QTs.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, maybe it's a little early for you, but i play probably play alot better than you after the flop... when you analyze a hand i post, remember to pretend you play effing good postflop. thx.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be a dick, Jason, you clearly don't play effing good postflop or else you wouldn't be posting so many hands here. You're too loose PF. We've seen it time and again. QTs is good for an open-raise CO. HJ is debatable.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty [censored] easy raise. It's not jason's fault you're a terrible poker player.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise it UTG in 6max, limp it earlier in full tables...you don't open QTs till the CO? I open Q9o there...

P.S. I suck at cards

[/ QUOTE ]

Q9 is a bit low on the spectrum in any position 10 handed, cept the button. I'd like to hear more on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to fold it till a coach told me it's a "standard open raise." now, I will fold it if the button is an aggro floating [censored], but I look for spots to raise it. FWIW it's the lowest offsuit Queen I raise, I open Q8o on the button.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
You're too loose PF.

[/ QUOTE ]
hahahahahahahahahaha. From what I hear that comment has to put a smile on jason's face.

I'd c/c the flop and lead any turn that improves our hand, 3-bet a flush. Preflop is gravy.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I raise it UTG in 6max, limp it earlier in full tables...you don't open QTs till the CO? I open Q9o there...

P.S. I suck at cards

[/ QUOTE ]

Q9 is a bit low on the spectrum in any position 10 handed, cept the button. I'd like to hear more on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

i heard from a very good source that q9o in the co is no good. button is ok.

as far as the rest of the thread i raise q10s 4 off the button, i.e. utg in 6max, i.e. one to the right of the hijack. i often raise q10o in the hijack and certainly in the co. i cant imagine this is wrong unless there are 3 maniacs to your left, in which case, you should be leaving soon.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

I play a TAG game and make shitloads doing it. QTs is a hand I don't get involved with unless I can limp along with limpers or steal the blinds from the CO or HJ. Perhpas I can rethink MP2 with this hand as it seems to be easily accepted here.

Re: 15/30 QTs turn
 

I like the check/call on the flop. I would bet the turn and then check/raise the river if it isn't a crub and I just get called in one spot. I would bet the river if I get called in both spots and it isn't a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

This looks very familier to a post I made a while back where I took the former line, got 3-bet on the end and was shown the nuts. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: 15/30 QTs turn
 

Preflop: QTs is worth a raise in this spot and it's not particularly close. Even Q9s is worth a raise here.

Flop: I don't agree with the crowd. I think the best play was to lead. If fish calls and button raises, you call. The reason this play is right is that if you keep them both, you are getting +EV for your bet. And occasionally you will pick up the pot.

Turn: I don't like check-raising because the bet is likely to come from the wrong position. So you should lead.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

You check and call, that's it. With the likely combatants and the said action; this hand is destined for a showdown.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

curious, did you know/have a pretty good idea that the CO Donk would
call w/ a lot of hands here (like 10J, 88, 77, etc.?)...did you want him to call when you raised?

Limping in is more correct. If you play better post flop, as you said, then you should be limping in for that very reason! Not raising! You committ yourself more to the pot w/ the raise pre-flop,
and You want more donk calls in there pre flop...it's a multi-way hand, not a HU one.
Unless you had a special
read of the situation and wanted to get HU against the calling station donk.

...

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

Jason was being sarcastic. He is quoting a post from another poster who does have an ego problem.

- Jim

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
Jason was being sarcastic. He is quoting a post from another poster

[/ QUOTE ]

Precisely. I'm glad someone finally caught the reference. I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] that poster.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
curious, did you know/have a pretty good idea that the CO Donk would
call w/ a lot of hands here (like 10J, 88, 77, etc.?)...did you want him to call when you raised?

Limping in is more correct. If you play better post flop, as you said, then you should be limping in for that very reason! Not raising! You committ yourself more to the pot w/ the raise pre-flop,
and You want more donk calls in there pre flop...it's a multi-way hand, not a HU one.
Unless you had a special
read of the situation and wanted to get HU against the calling station donk.

...

[/ QUOTE ]

In limit opening for a raise is almost always correct if your going to play. Normally Jason will have the added benefit of playing a 3 card hand. The two he has and the mythical ace. I'm not certain of raising QT's preflop here, but it's not criminal and QJo I'd certainly raise. On the flop check call. On the turn I like bet 3 bet if the guy likes to raise donks, bet call has merit though, the problem is that there is no way that I'm checking a river here so I can't bet call then check raise which I do to better players.

Re: 15/30 QTs turn
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the turn and then check/raise the river if it isn't a crub and I just get called in one spot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why would you want to check-raise the river if you get called by only one? CO is a loose passive who you can't count on to value bet anything and Button's most likely hand has to be AK which he very well might show down hoping you tried to pull some semi-bluff crap with one club, but almost certainly isn't betting himself.

Re: 15/30 QTs flop
 

[ QUOTE ]
curious, did you know/have a pretty good idea that the CO Donk would
call w/ a lot of hands here (like 10J, 88, 77, etc.?)...did you want him to call when you raised?

Limping in is more correct. If you play better post flop, as you said, then you should be limping in for that very reason! Not raising! You committ yourself more to the pot w/ the raise pre-flop,
and You want more donk calls in there pre flop...it's a multi-way hand, not a HU one.
Unless you had a special
read of the situation and wanted to get HU against the calling station donk.

...

[/ QUOTE ]

You open limp?