How important is math in poker?
 

I've been playing for about two years now (about 7-10 tournaments a week) at 10/1 NL Hold-Em SnG at Party Poker. Since I've started my bankroll has increased 5 fold, but math is rarely a factor in my decision making. I never find myself saying..."I'm 3-1 favorite to win the pot" or anything along those lines. Am I just getting lucky playing against weak players, at low limit tables, or is math not as important as it is hyped up to be?

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

over rated big time. obviously you need to know the basic pot odds and such, but way over rated

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

The whole game is math. Some people can be successful by chance, and stumble upon general plays that somewhat correspond with the math behind it. But, the players that really understand the underlying mathematical concepts do significantly better and are much better and more adaptive players.

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

I don't always think of specific numbers, but for example in SSHE i memorized the basic probablilities of certain draws hitting, etc. In the middle of a hand (since I have a weak head for hard math on the fly) I rarely whip out the calculator, but I will compare my chance of hitting vs. what the pot is laying me. There won't be a moment where you realize "THat math based decision saved me money!" You'll just realize, "Hey, I would've tilted away those bets calling when I shouldn't have."

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

How do you determine whether to call when you have 44 in level 1, 2 or 3 and it's been raised to X?

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

Math is very important. Many players seem to think math is simply arithmetic and calculations. While most of these calculations are unnecessary since the decisions are often not close, you nonetheless make a decision using math almost every play. For example, suppose you raise from early position with pocket tens in hold'em, and a very tight player goes all-in against from late position. You narrow his hand range down to ak aq or jj-aa. And you would fold since in only two of those situations you are slightly aheaed, and in four your way behind. That is math, it is reasoning with quantities.

If math were not important, why would people be against bots or other computer aids

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

I believe that the math that you use is actually used subconsciously... For example you have a hand that you may play 10/J suited. But someone in front of you puts in a big raise and you decide not to play. You are using math skills to figure out that generally that is a losing bet, that you will be throwing your hand away after the flop and you will not be making money. Most of the math skills you use are probably approximations, but still math. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do you determine whether to call when you have 44 in level 1, 2 or 3 and it's been raised to X?

[/ QUOTE ]

You stare into his soul, of course. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

-g

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
is math not as important as it is hyped up to be

[/ QUOTE ]

Math is... everything? That is a question not a statement. Unlike Mike Caro I happen to be a propronent of learning the math of poker. It is a relatively simple thing to do and I've always believed very important to becoming a winning player. It is the prime reason that I migrated to the Sklansky & Malmuth way of playing poker.

But...but..not butt...but I have a buddy. He just may be the best mid limit player that I know. I'm sure he is the best at the limit he plays...well, pretty sure. O.K. maybe he is just one of the best at his limit but he is definitely one of the best. He does somewhat consider the math of poker when playing. But not precisely, I would say that he kind of guesses and has a general idea of what the right numbers might be but doesn't really concern himself much about it. I make him as the proverbial seat of the pants player with an O.K I'll give the math a little consideration attitude. I don't remember if it was Ray Zee or Mason that told me that you don't have to know the exact amount in the pot but you do need to have a good idea of how much is in it. Well it wouldn't matter if my buddy kneew how much is in the pot or not. He doesn't think in terms of outs vs pot odds. He plays according to what his instincts tell him. His instincts have treated him well for a long time. He does play somewhat according to the math of poker preflop. He makes calls according to pot size but he does it because his strategy calls for it. He will not call a raise unless he gets the right price according to his strategy. That's smart but it's not because he knows the math it's because he's memorized the numbers he needs to make certain calls. For instance and as a rough example if he has suited connectors he will only call a raise if he is getting 6 to 1 on the call. (I may be a little off on the numbers). He might be right to play this way but if you ask him why he needs 6 to 1 his answer will be "Because that's what my strategy calls for". Ask him why it calls for 6 to 1 and not 4 to 1 and he cannot answer other than to say that his strategy was developed by those that should know. I suppose that one could say that at least preflop he is using math to guide his decisions but I believe that is stretching things a bit.

The bottom line is that I believe that understanding and applying the math of poker is very important in becoming a winning player.There was a time I believed that to win in the Sklansky and Malmuth era where I felt most players would be playing according to modern poker theory that it wold be impossible to win without knowing and applying the math of poker. But I find that that is not true. Poker in B$M casinos is actually better (worse players) than it was just a few years ago. And online players are just horrible. And looking at my buddy's experience goes against my belief also. The funny thing is that my buddy would say that if I go by his experience that I would be results oriented. Of course he woud be right. But...oh well.

Vince

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

Not that important - And here is why;
When you have learned the basics the mathematics isnt that important after all. It is of much more importance to know how to play a hand than to know WHY it should be played in a certain way...

I play 30 60 fixed limit and 3 6 no limit and I RARELY think about math. The only thing I keep in mind while playing are the odds for specific hands probability to hit(aprox)when not being on a draw - and how much I can get paid if I hit When I draw.

That reasoning leads into what I believe is the main part of a good poker game - Psychology...

In other words: If i hit my draw how much will that specific person be willing to pay me - AND - will that justify me calling (raising for foldequity etc etc)??

This applies much more to no limit than limit though.

I am also aware of that everything comes down to mathematics, but as I use to say; You do not need to be a atom physicist to become a good tennis player...

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Not that important - And here is why;
When you have learned the basics the mathematics isnt that important after all. It is of much more importance to know how to play a hand than to know WHY it should be played in a certain way...

I play 30 60 fixed limit and 3 6 no limit and I RARELY think about math. The only thing I keep in mind while playing are the odds for specific hands probability to hit(aprox)when not being on a draw - and how much I can get paid if I hit When I draw.

That reasoning leads into what I believe is the main part of a good poker game - Psychology...

In other words: If i hit my draw how much will that specific person be willing to pay me - AND - will that justify me calling (raising for foldequity etc etc)??

This applies much more to no limit than limit though.

I am also aware of that everything comes down to mathematics, but as I use to say; You do not need to be a atom physicist to become a good tennis player...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly, but if this is your way of saying you feel psychology is more important than math I think that's very funny.

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
It is of much more importance to know how to play a hand than to know WHY it should be played in a certain way...


[/ QUOTE ]

I couldn't get past this statement. If this is true I need to rethink how I look at the game. If it is not true then you need to rethink how you look at the game. One of us has a fundamental misunderstanding in what's important in poker.

Vince

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

Yeah I do the same thing to. But the only way I use math is how many higher cards there are out there that can beat me, and when im trying to draw a hand I just guess of how many of that specific card is in the deck and try my chances.

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

My personal view is that it is critical to understand how to calculate the odds you are getting on your bets or offering your opponents on their bets, however that is pretty easy to learn. Once you have the basic math down I think that the real edge is to be found in understanding and manipulating your opponent into making ( mathematical ) mistakes.

Poker math is critical but also easy, psychology is probably where the biggest edge is to be found though but its also probably the harder part of the game.

I guess that for a successful player psychology and math would form a synergy.

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

Well Vince,
I'd say that what you are essentially saying is "doing the math on the fly is not important as long as your strategy has the math embedded in it".

I'd tend to agree. Often if you look at a reccomended play an author makes, and then go do the math, then it makes sense.

So I suspect it is possible to not have to be a mathematician who can calculate 5 decimals in your head on the fly. Your strategy just need to be underlying mathematically correct.

Clearly math underpins the whole game, if not the whole universe. But whether you have to be running a calculator in your head constantly is a different question.

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I RARELY think about math. The only thing I keep in mind while playing are the odds for specific hands probability to hit(aprox)when not being on a draw - and how much I can get paid if I hit When I draw.


[/ QUOTE ]

I believe odds and probability are math but i rarely think about it. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

Ironically, math is more important at the low levels, as you are more likely to come across players taking short prices on longshots. Playing mathematically sound poker alone can be enough to beat those games.

The more experience players know the math. So, psychology becomes the deciding factor.

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

If game is 100% math, however your calculations are based on guessing certain variables. Thus someone who is better at guessing these variables will have better results long term.

AKA if you have QQ vs. 1 other player the mathematical scenarios can be hugely different, the guy in front of you bets, you raise, he reraises all in...

VS an under pair you are a HUGE favorite
VS AK you are about even money
VS KK/AA you are a huge underdog

Well that math is very easy... but which scenario are you actually in? That's where "reading people/hands/feel/whatever" comes in.

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

My previous post is geared towards lower limit play.



What seperates people like Johnny Chan, Doyle Brunson, Phil Helmuth, and Phil Ivey from the rest of us? It's obviously something beyond math.

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your strategy just need to be underlying mathematically correct.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'd guess this is pretty accurate.

Vince

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

In my game I don't sit there thinking of the math in my head, but the basic math to the game I believe is very important. Some amount of math on drawing outs along with pot odds can help everyone.

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

Any reference to basic pot odds somewhere? I would like a refresher.

Re: How important is math in poker?
 

Geez, that was a pretty contorted sentance, huh? Sometimes my typing and thinking are at different speeds. LOL! But you get the idea.

Essentially this is why "ABC poker" would work. If you have enough of the common situations worked out, you can play them with mental efficiency. Leaving you some space to think about adjustments.