Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

What do you think about the raise on the turn? Standard after the action so far, right?

But who bets the flop in the first place? and who would raise the flop when it comes back to you?

5-10 (10-handed)

Hero is SB with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

UTG calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, BB fold and limpers call. 4 to the flop for 9 SB.

Flop: T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, MP2 calls, Hero calls, UTG calls. 4 to the turn for 6.5 BB.

Turn: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls. HU to the river for 10.5 BB.

River: 4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

Uh, no. What makes you think this is standard? I like the flop check, why the [censored] would you want to check raise it?

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

I would consider folding to the flop bet but would probably call. Folding might be better, though.

On the turn I would check-fold.

I don't like that flop at all versus three limpers, and the third club on the turn doesn't cheer me up any.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, no. What makes you think this is standard? I like the flop check, why the [censored] would you want to check raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Easy now... I just want some discussions! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If MP2 folded to UTG+2's bet we would have an EASY check-raise. I think it is mandatory and not raising would be absolutely TERRIBLE! Look at the action so far... it's checked to him on the flop and he bets. So what? He could have a WIDE range of hands. Made hands, draws or nothing.... People bets very lightly when it's checked to them in late postion, especially in raised pots when the pre-flop raiser has checked, indicating he missed the flop and only has overcards. Folding would not be an option when I could easily have the best hand and very often 6 outs if I'm behind. Since I want won't fold, raising is the only option. By raising I can make UTG fold his 6-outer or a weak made hand and play the rest of the hand heads-up with UTG+2's possible draw. Knocking the other players out will improve my winning chances a lot in this big pot.

But that was about if MP2 had folded.... The situation in this hand was a bit different since he called. Folding is still not an option and calling is probably better than raising. On the turn, the card that comes and the action will then decide how I continue to play the hand.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

To raise the turn is a big mistake. You should defenitely fold. Flop is probably good, but a fold would not be bad either. You need a little less than 4 outs here to be good. You have 6 outs to improve your hand, but the possibility exists that you are reversed dominated or that someone has got two pair or better with a hand like T9 or a slowplayed set, you just dont know. This reduces the strength of your draw to maybe 3,5-4 outs. Additional to that, the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] are definitely no clean outs, and may set up a redraw for a single club. The T and 9 are also always dangerous cards, often played which makes it likely that someone has hit them here. *And the board is coordinated which means if you improve on the turn you still have to dogde some additional cards on the river. I'd say its very close to a flop fold. The turn is not much to say about, anything but a fold here is wasted money.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Uh, no. What makes you think this is standard? I like the flop check, why the [censored] would you want to check raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Easy now... I just want some discussions! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If MP2 folded to UTG+2's bet we would have an EASY check-raise. I think it is mandatory and not raising would be absolutely TERRIBLE! Look at the action so far... it's checked to him on the flop and he bets. So what? He could have a WIDE range of hands. Made hands, draws or nothing.... People bets very lightly when it's checked to them in late postion, especially in raised pots when the pre-flop raiser has checked, indicating he missed the flop and only has overcards. Folding would not be an option when I could easily have the best hand and very often 6 outs if I'm behind. Since I want won't fold, raising is the only option. By raising I can make UTG fold his 6-outer or a weak made hand and play the rest of the hand heads-up with UTG+2's possible draw. Knocking the other players out will improve my winning chances a lot in this big pot.

But that was about if MP2 had folded.... The situation in this hand was a bit different since he called. Folding is still not an option and calling is probably better than raising. On the turn, the card that comes and the action will then decide how I continue to play the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your argument is well thought out, but wrong.

Check-fold the turn. You're not protecting anything with a check-raise, nor is it a raise for value (maybe to villian's value, but not yours).

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Uh, no. What makes you think this is standard? I like the flop check, why the [censored] would you want to check raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]
Easy now... I just want some discussions! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If MP2 folded to UTG+2's bet we would have an EASY check-raise. I think it is mandatory and not raising would be absolutely TERRIBLE! Look at the action so far... it's checked to him on the flop and he bets. So what? He could have a WIDE range of hands. Made hands, draws or nothing.... People bets very lightly when it's checked to them in late postion, especially in raised pots when the pre-flop raiser has checked, indicating he missed the flop and only has overcards. Folding would not be an option when I could easily have the best hand and very often 6 outs if I'm behind. Since I want won't fold, raising is the only option. By raising I can make UTG fold his 6-outer or a weak made hand and play the rest of the hand heads-up with UTG+2's possible draw. Knocking the other players out will improve my winning chances a lot in this big pot.

But that was about if MP2 had folded.... The situation in this hand was a bit different since he called. Folding is still not an option and calling is probably better than raising. On the turn, the card that comes and the action will then decide how I continue to play the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think putting more money in on the turn is spewing, plain and simple. UTG+2 likely has a pair and then checked because the flush card scared him. MP2 likes his hand enough to bet into a 3-flush board. You have a weak draw at best - ditch it!

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would consider folding to the flop bet but would probably call. Folding might be better, though.

[/ QUOTE ]
Folding was NOT an option. Folding would be terrible poker IMHO! Awful! One guy bet when it was checked to him. That means, well... he's got two cards. Another guy called. That means he obviously didn't have a hand good enough to raise. When the action was back to me I had an EASY call. The pot was laying me 11-to-1 and I could still have the best hand and if I was behind, I often have 6 outs. On average maybe I have 4-5 outs. Nevertheless... folding was NOT an option!

[ QUOTE ]
On the turn I would check-fold.

[/ QUOTE ]
The 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] that came on the turn card was not my dream card. The action after I checked would decide how I continued to play the hand. If UTG+2 had bet again I would probably have folded... maybe. If UTG+2 had bet and MP2 had called I think I would have had a clear fold though.

Now when UTG+2 checked and MP2 bet I had to decide what to do. Raise or fold? Calling was not an option. I can't let UTG or UTG+2 call with a made hand or a draw.

What about folding? Noone had showed any strength so far in the hand. By the action I knew UTG+2 didn't have a strong hand since he backed off when he was called on the flop. MP2 didn't have a hand strong enough to raise on the flop, but of course he could have a made hand. But people calls with so many strange holdings on the flop for one bet and betting the turn when checked to, doesn't mean much. UTG could have been helped by the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], it's hard to tell...

So why did I raise? If the turn card had been the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I would have had an EASY raise. The chances are just too great for me to consider folding in that case. Since the third club made an flush possible (and the 6 a straight) the decision was not as clear. But since noone had showed any strength so far and I could still have the best hand, or knock out the best hand, I decided to raise.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If MP2 folded to UTG+2's bet we would have an EASY check-raise. I think it is mandatory and not raising would be absolutely TERRIBLE! Look at the action so far... it's checked to him on the flop and he bets. So what? He could have a WIDE range of hands. Made hands, draws or nothing.... People bets very lightly when it's checked to them in late postion, especially in raised pots when the pre-flop raiser has checked, indicating he missed the flop and only has overcards

[/ QUOTE ]

If you are going in with this approach then CR the flop and lead the turn. It's still spewing but at least it is more in line with your thinking.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

All right. If MP2 turned over A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or something on the river, then I guess your play probably won you the pot.

I'm not saying your turn play will never work, but I wouldn't have made it.

Edit: By the way, wouldn't firing a follow-up bluff on the river have been more consistent?

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

I don't understand why you think not folding on the turn is an option you have between 4 and 0 outs. Also if your going to bluff why not fire the last barrel on the river?

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying your turn play will never work, but I wouldn't have made it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you have raised if the turn card was a blank?

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying your turn play will never work, but I wouldn't have made it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you have raised if the turn card was a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'll find no one would have raised here. Even if a blank comes you're unlikely to fold a pair (which you're probably behind to at the moment).

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
All right. If MP2 turned over A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or something on the river, then I guess your play probably won you the pot.

I'm not saying your turn play will never work, but I wouldn't have made it.

Edit: By the way, wouldn't firing a follow-up bluff on the river have been more consistent?

[/ QUOTE ]

do u think any better hand that called the turn C/R would fold for one bet on the river?

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying your turn play will never work, but I wouldn't have made it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you have raised if the turn card was a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think I would have.

I guess the checkraise does represent a slowplayed monster like TT, and I'll admit that no one has shown consistent interest in the hand. But the board hits the limping zone fairly well. It seems to me that if you're checkraising the turn, you're hoping MP2 is semibluffing with a draw and you can drive the others out and get heads-up.

UTG+2 may have a draw of his own and cold-call with it, though, which would complicate things.

Also, I suspect MP2 has a hand with some showdown value. I know he got checked to, but he is betting into three players who called the flop, after all.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All right. If MP2 turned over A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or something on the river, then I guess your play probably won you the pot.

I'm not saying your turn play will never work, but I wouldn't have made it.

Edit: By the way, wouldn't firing a follow-up bluff on the river have been more consistent?

[/ QUOTE ]

do u think any better hand that called the turn C/R would fold for one bet on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Something like 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] might. Maybe even 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] would. (I'd kind of have expected a flop raise from the A9o, though.)

Since I can't see what people are folding at the table, though, to some extent I can only guess what MP2 might let go on the river. I suspect he'd call with most pairs and make Hero show his slowplayed monster (or his strangely played flush). But maybe, instead, Villain would fear a monster enough to give up unimproved on the river.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying your turn play will never work, but I wouldn't have made it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you have raised if the turn card was a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think I would have.

[/ QUOTE ]
What would you have done if the turn was a blank and it was checked to MP2 who bet? Fold?

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

Its never standard to get tricky in a multiway pot with plenty of draws available when the pot is of a medium size.

I think 6 outs is a little too optimistic. I think it is fewer. If the pot were bigger it might be worth a raise to increase your chances of winning and buy outs (if someone folds a smallish club)

On the turn, folding>raising>calling.

But the other posters are being far too critical of you. At least you are thinking and not being weak-tight. Its right to play aggressively in big pots, but I don't think this one is big enough given the chances of your winning.

Did it work this time? I hope the guy didn't have A4o.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm not saying your turn play will never work, but I wouldn't have made it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you have raised if the turn card was a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I don't think I would have.

[/ QUOTE ]
What would you have done if the turn was a blank and it was checked to MP2 who bet? Fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most likely, yes. I doubt I have the best hand, and I don't completely trust my outs.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

Not standard. Check-fold the turn, particularly given your lack of a club.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If MP2 folded to UTG+2's bet we would have an EASY check-raise. I think it is mandatory and not raising would be absolutely TERRIBLE!

[/ QUOTE ]

No way. Even if you manage isolate and get HU against villain, your river play will be impossible UI. You need to learn how to let AK go, particularly when OOP.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]

Did it work this time? I hope the guy didn't have A4o.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course it worked! It allways works! Didn't I tell you this is the correct play? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Actually, I think the turn decision is pretty close, and a fold is probably the best play. As I wrote earlier the turn card is not very good for my hand. It completes 2 draws and creates a redraw. That combined with the number of opponents in the hand I think I should have folded.

But I want to stress out thaf if the turn card was a blank and the action was the same to me, raising would CLEARLY be the best play. Everything else is just BAD, BAD, BAD... But NOONE in this thread agreed with me on that point. I didn't expect that everyone would agree with me, but I certainly didn't expect to get crucified by the whole 2+2 crew for my play!

I am SURPRISED and seriously WORRIED that respected 2+2 posters would fold if a blank hit on the turn and the action was the same. You can't fold in a 7.5 BB pot to a bet from some dude that bets on the turn when checked to after doing nothing so far in the hand. Folding is just bad weak-tight poker. With some simple hand reading it's easy to see that he probably doesn't have much. And when you realize you can't fold, you must realize that raising is by far better than calling for the reasons I've already mentioned a million times in this thread.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

I'd rather check raise the flop (if I wasn't going to fold) and then bet out on the turn with the flush card and fold to a reraise.

Check raising the flop makes it look like you are sweetening the pot with a flush draw so if a club hits on the turn then you are likely to force people out. Additionally, if a King or Ace hits on the Turn you have a good shot at winning the hand.

I'm not a fan of check raising the turn even with a blank and especially with 3 clubs.

rvg

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

I fold it on the flop. Too many draws there and you don't have even a club. But if I was drunk and felt like bluffing on this board I'd bet the river as well.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would you have raised if the turn card was a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'll find no one would have raised here. Even if a blank comes you're unlikely to fold a pair (which you're probably behind to at the moment).

[/ QUOTE ]
I think I found one. A lot of posters here should read/reread that Clarkmeister hand and think about how that concept can be applied in this hand.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Would you have raised if the turn card was a blank?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you'll find no one would have raised here. Even if a blank comes you're unlikely to fold a pair (which you're probably behind to at the moment).

[/ QUOTE ]
I think I found one. A lot of posters here should read/reread that Clarkmeister hand and think about how that concept can be applied in this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be much more applicable if the turn was a blank and didn't bring 3 to the flush.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Of course it worked! It allways works! Didn't I tell you this is the correct play? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're being results-oriented with your line.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

You're annoying.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

If you're behind here you most likely have 4 outs, not 6, as the clubs put a 4 flush on the board. I might consider this if you had a Club in your hand, but otherwise it's a check/fold.

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

yup, fold

Re: Turn check-raise w/ overcards. Standard?
 

If the turn was a blank, the problem here is with two cards in the playing zone(T and 9) two pair or better is much more likely than in the clarkmeister example ( Q 5 6). He also had backdoor straight and flush draws. With the T and 9 out your AK outs are much worse, not too mention a K could make QJ a straight (I know thats a tiny chance though). On this board, your outs are much much more tainted than in the clarkmeister example, and the pot is slightly bigger in his example as well. Not to forget there are 4 people on the turn in your example, and 3 in clarks.

Clarkmeisters play is a good one, but it only works at the right time at the right conditions. All the factors that show in your example lead me to a fold, but change the T to a 3 or something, and the turn being a blank, It could be a good play.