did I overplay this?
 

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Omaha/8 (6 handed) converter

Preflop: teary-eyed boy is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, teary-eyed boy calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, teary-eyed boy calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">teary-eyed boy raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">teary-eyed boy caps</font>, SB calls, BB folds, MP calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">teary-eyed boy raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, MP calls, teary-eyed boy calls.

Final Pot: 27.50 BB

I figured that I had a redraw to the second nut flush, a full house, and already had the nut broadway on the turn.

help?

Re: did I overplay this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Omaha/8 (6 handed) converter

Preflop: teary-eyed boy is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls, teary-eyed boy calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, teary-eyed boy calls, Button folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">teary-eyed boy raises</font>, SB calls, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">teary-eyed boy caps</font>, SB calls, BB folds, MP calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, MP calls, <font color="#CC3333">teary-eyed boy raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, MP calls, teary-eyed boy calls.

Final Pot: 27.50 BB

I figured that I had a redraw to the second nut flush, a full house, and already had the nut broadway on the turn.

help?

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Looks similar to how I would've played it. I might've been more agressive on the flop, but the possible low draw is a tad worrisome. Other than that, I wouldn've have been going anywhere.

If it's any consilation (I'm assuming you ran into the King-high flush?) I was playing 3-handed one time and had the nut high on the turn and the 2nd nut low on the river (there was only one foe in the pot with me) and on the river I had the 2nd nut low and 2nd nut high, and my opponent happened to have the top nuts for high and low, what can ya do? You figure 3 people at the table and only one opponent in the hand with you, that 2nd nuts for both high and low you're good at least one way, but I guess not always.

Re: did I overplay this?
 

Underplayed on the flop... raise and push off the weak high and low draws.

Nice push on the turn to get rid of any lingering low-only draws.

Overplayed on the river. Low hand + spade (possible nut) flush filled up. With four remaining in the pot, your best hope is most likely a split. Call the single bet, call or fold to the reraise depending on your read and SB's action.

Re: did I overplay this?
 

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Underplayed on the flop... raise and push off the weak high and low draws.

Nice push on the turn to get rid of any lingering low-only draws.

Overplayed on the river. Low hand + spade (possible nut) flush filled up. With four remaining in the pot, your best hope is most likely a split. Call the single bet, call or fold to the reraise depending on your read and SB's action.

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I think you're giving the Party $0.50/$1 players way too much credit. Granted, there's a possible low, and Hero has the 2nd nut high hand at this point.

I think more often than not, Hero is ahead on this river (against these particular opponents) and stands to make more money in the long-run betting it than check-calling.

Also, I don't feel the flop play was poor, since there are many draws out there that he's probably not going to be able to push anyone out to narrow the field. Instead, he'll just be creating a larger pot that he potentially may not win (depending on how the turn and river play out)

Re: did I overplay this?
 

Good points on the type of players you typically face at lower limits at PP, I tend to steer toward the conservative when critiquing... without having been at that table I'd rather err on the side of caution and encourage solid play than assume it was weak, even if it probably was [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I still would have been aggressive on the flop.. even facing a strong hand like KQ34ds he's about even to scoop and better than 2:1 to split. The only real danger is a double suited set with a nut low draw (not very likely, especially here... and a raise would probably flush this hand out.) Sure, they may call down and suckout with a weak hand, but they're going to have to pay to do it. If they want to keep sticking around playing for half the pot, they'll get eaten alive.

I'd agree with your analysis of the river if he had any kind of low hand... chances are good one of them stuck around to hit some kind of low, and without a nut high I'd be concerned about being too aggressive shooting for what is probably a split pot here.

Re: did I overplay this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Good points on the type of players you typically face at lower limits at PP, I tend to steer toward the conservative when critiquing... without having been at that table I'd rather err on the side of caution and encourage solid play than assume it was weak, even if it probably was [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I still would have been aggressive on the flop.. even facing a strong hand like KQ34ds he's about even to scoop and better than 2:1 to split. The only real danger is a double suited set with a nut low draw (not very likely, especially here... and a raise would probably flush this hand out.) Sure, they may call down and suckout with a weak hand, but they're going to have to pay to do it. If they want to keep sticking around playing for half the pot, they'll get eaten alive.

I'd agree with your analysis of the river if he had any kind of low hand... chances are good one of them stuck around to hit some kind of low, and without a nut high I'd be concerned about being too aggressive shooting for what is probably a split pot here.

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In my view, if I'm getting half the pot, I want the other three suckers (two whom are being quartered and one who is playing the 6th nut hand) to put more money into the pot for me to snag. Then again, I'm a crazy agressive mofo

Re: did I overplay this?
 

*If* you're getting half the pot a raise here nets you at best one additional bet profit.... if you're confident in the implied odds and think that play will pay off more than once in four at that particular table, by all means go for it.

A little too close to the line in this case to inspire a raise out of me, but these are the variations that make even world class poker exciting [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: did I overplay this?
 

Flop: I raise here. It would be very difficult to not have the plurality of the PE here (more then anyone else). With the plurality of the PE and position I want to punish anyone who is drawing. Yes they probably are going to call anyway but you will make money every time they call w/o odds and you will lose money every time they call with odds. Raise to hurt their odds. It will build the pot for others to draw at on later streets and it will force you to make more crying calls but I still think that it is worth it.

Turn: I play the same way

River: This is actually a bad card for you. It makes a low which is likely to be out there and it takes away your nuts for the high. I would flat call. Here is my small EV calc (I know I am obsessed with these things but they put the hand into perspective for me).

Call and lose: -1BB
Call and win: +.5BB
Raise and lose: -3BB
Raise and win: 1BB

Let x be the probably of you losing then
-3x + 1(1 – x) = -1x + ½(1 - x)
x = .2

With my slightly faulty assumptions if you take ½ the pot more then 4:5 the raise will be a better play. Less then that a call will be a better play.

This calc is a little harsh to the raise (you will scoop occasionally, you will sometimes get raised and win, sometimes you opponent will be a total donk and not re-raise when you are beat ...) but I think that it puts the raise into perspective. You are going to have to win ½ the pot very frequently for the raise to be profitable.

Re: did I overplay this?
 

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Flop: I raise here. It would be very difficult to not have the plurality of the PE here (more then anyone else). With the plurality of the PE and position I want to punish anyone who is drawing. Yes they probably are going to call anyway but you will make money every time they call w/o odds and you will lose money every time they call with odds. Raise to hurt their odds. It will build the pot for others to draw at on later streets and it will force you to make more crying calls but I still think that it is worth it.

Turn: I play the same way

River: This is actually a bad card for you. It makes a low which is likely to be out there and it takes away your nuts for the high. I would flat call. Here is my small EV calc (I know I am obsessed with these things but they put the hand into perspective for me).

Call and lose: -1BB
Call and win: +.5BB
Raise and lose: -3BB
Raise and win: 1BB

Let x be the probably of you losing then
-3x + 1(1 – x) = -1x + ½(1 - x)
x = .2

With my slightly faulty assumptions if you take ½ the pot more then 4:5 the raise will be a better play. Less then that a call will be a better play.

This calc is a little harsh to the raise (you will scoop occasionally, you will sometimes get raised and win, sometimes you opponent will be a total donk and not re-raise when you are beat ...) but I think that it puts the raise into perspective. You are going to have to win ½ the pot very frequently for the raise to be profitable.

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Again, I think you underestimate how poorly a lot of these players are, especially at 0.50/1. They may re-raise you with the lower flush and there may be multiple low hands re-raising as well.

Against a tougher table, I'd play it different. But against these fish, I believe my 2nd nut high on the river is best the majority of the time, given that flop.

Re: did I overplay this?
 

Gooper - I think you have to figure that someone is going to make low here. If so, Hero has to win for high twice as often as Hero loses to want to initiate fresh money into the pot.

The way the betting has gone on the turn, it looks as though at least one of the opponents, and maybe both of them have the same ace-high straight as Hero.

Let's consider raising or not on the river.

If both opponents also have the ace-high straight, Hero cannot gain by raising, regardless of low.

If either opponent also has the ace-high straight, and if one of them also has low, Hero can only lose by raising.

Thus raising on the river is purely stupid.

Buzz

Re: did I overplay this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gooper - I think you have to figure that someone is going to make low here. If so, Hero has to win for high twice as often as Hero loses to want to initiate fresh money into the pot.

The way the betting has gone on the turn, it looks as though at least one of the opponents, and maybe both of them have the same ace-high straight as Hero.

Let's consider raising or not on the river.

If both opponents also have the ace-high straight, Hero cannot gain by raising, regardless of low.

If either opponent also has the ace-high straight, and if one of them also has low, Hero can only lose by raising.

Thus raising on the river is purely stupid.

Buzz

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Uh....on the river the Hero has the 2nd nut FLUSH, so if his opponents have the straight like he had, it's not a concern.

In addition, the low possibility on the flop produces MANY chasers in low limit Omaha 8.

I still believe the majority of the time, at these stakes, and given this particular type of action, that Hero is ahead and will secure the High, so betting and getting the other three bumping it up more is only going to win you more bets.

I can't count how many times when I started out, that I was pushed out of the pot with the 2nd nut hand when my opponents were betting 3rd-6th nuts because they have no clue (not that I'm advocating sticking around with 2nd nuts all the time, but in this situation I believe you're winning high most of the time)

Re: did I overplay this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If so, Hero has to win for high twice as often as Hero loses to want to initiate fresh money into the pot.

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My point was that it is actually worse then that. If Hero is beat then his opponent will probably re-raise and he is going to have to put in two extra bets (his raise and his opponents re-raise). If Hero is ahead he will only win 1 extra bet so Hero will have to win more then 2:3 to make his raise profitable.

Re: did I overplay this?
 

I'll have to fall back to a play money/real money comparison... just because a bad table makes a raise profitable doesn't make it a good play. Good way to build bad habits.

With all due respect however, I absolutely agree that you must play the table you're on, and if it was as fishy as grandgnu assumes it was, I can't say a raise is necessarily a bad move here. It's simply something that I would not have chosen to do, even on a loose table.

If it was indeed that loose, what's to make me think MP hasn't stumbled all the way down with the nut flush/no low in spite of the heavy odds against him on the flop? Sure, I could easily put him on QQxx with that turn reraise.. but can I be sure enough to make a low ROI wager on the river? Nearly half the deck is on the table before the flop, and even (or especially?) against complete donks there's a very real threat of getting hosed. There are plenty of opportunities with a better profit to risk ratio than this bid to squeeze *at most* one more bet from a 20-bet pot.

He's got nothing here... nada, zero, zip. Heck, he's not even holding a third spade. A raise, IMO, is not warranted against implied odds on this river. Pot odds, maybe. Not saying you're wrong, not saying I'm right, just saying I disagree [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: did I overplay this?
 

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Uh....on the river the Hero has the 2nd nut FLUSH, so if his opponents have the straight like he had, it's not a concern.

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Grand Gnu - You're right. I realized Hero had the 2nd nut flush but temporarily forgot that when I stacked up chips. My goof.

Thanks for the correction.

In that case, it's close.

If Hero didn't have to call a re-raise, I agree Hero has a raise. But I agree with Gooper that when you figure in the possibility of a re-raise, Hero does better by calling.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

Re: did I overplay this?
 

[ QUOTE ]
If Hero is ahead he will only win 1 extra bet

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Gooper - I like your interesting, original, innovative perspective on the math.

However, if you assume one of the opponents can make a low, a very reasonable assumption here, Hero only wins a half bet for every bet Hero risks (rather than winning 1 whole extra bet).

Buzz

Re: did I overplay this?
 

Thanks a ton for the help guys. I opted not to raise the flop since I was last to act and figured that no one was going anywhere for one more bet, choosing to wait for a favorable turn card (which came). With the nuts between me and another player and 4 players in, and at worst breaking even if a low dropped and quartered me on the high, I capped the turn.

I agree that the river raising might have been a mistake. I obviously confronted the possibility of the K high flush, but I didn't factor into my calculation that I'd be splitting with a low (which happens to me very often when there's an A on the board, it just doesn't factor into my instincts). If I had been holding something like J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and the 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] hit the river, I definitely would have raised, though.

Re: did I overplay this?
 

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However, if you assume one of the opponents can make a low, a very reasonable assumption here, Hero only wins a half bet for every bet Hero risks (rather than winning 1 whole extra bet).

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I wasn't doing that calc per bet I was doing it overall.

If hero is ahead and the third person calls:
3 people will put 2 bets in the pot for a total of 6 bets. If hero wins he will win 3 bets of which he put in 2 for a total of +1. (Risking 2 to win 1 or winning 1/2 for every bet put in)

If hero is behind and gets re-raised he will lose 3BB.

Overall he is either going to win 1BB or lose 3.

Re: did I overplay this?
 

Gooper - I see it. You're right. Thanks.

Buzz

Re: did I overplay this?
 

For a loose low limit game, SB's play is consistent with the nut low draw hitting on the river. MP strikes me as someone who had the nut straight on the turn and picked up either a low flush or a weak low.

I don't hate just calling on the flop. Top two pair on a flop with an ace and a possible low draw is not a nice position to be in with a high-only hand. Especially if I think I can't get anyone to fold, I would consider calling and re-evaluating on the turn, since there are so many good cards and so many bad cards that can come.

The pushing on the turn is good, especially since you have redraws.

The raise on the river is defensible, although I am not entirely thrilled about it. Actually, I don't fear the nut flush that much. Rather, I am concerned that MP has merely the straight while SB clearly has a low. To make money from the river action, you need MP to call and split his money between your high and the SB's low. I would have preferred to just call the SB, hoping for an overcall from MP, who really shouldn't call a bet and raise with just a straight (but might if he also had a decent low).

Re: did I overplay this?
 

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Nice push on the turn to get rid of any lingering low-only draws

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there is no low draw on the turn

Re: did I overplay this?
 

Your play looks fine to me except the river raise.

Re: did I overplay this?
 

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there is no low draw on the turn

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[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Flop was A2x

Re: did I overplay this?
 

nevermind