confused AJo
 

Loose table no real solid reads but this hand made me feel retarded as it played out. Hows my line. By the end I didn't feel like I had any idea where I was at so I didn't raise it on the river.

Paradise Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls.

Turn: (10 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (18 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, MP1 folds, Hero calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 21 BB

Re: confused AJo
 

I would have raised the river. Without the read on the button the turn call is fine, he could have hit 2pair.

Re: confused AJo
 

Talk about coming out of no where on both the turn and the river. Both cards don't seem to help anyone, but a new person starts firing on every street. I'm actually lost here too. Did the small blind have a J with a weak kicker? The 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] doesn't seem to be any help so did the button have 2 pair, a made set or straight on the flop?

Re: confused AJo
 

yea all the cold calling and the bets coming from every direction completely threw me off. I'll post the results for those interested.


alright alright i'll post em later

Re: confused AJo
 

I'm just calling this river as there is a good chance button has just boated up or has a made straight. I'm not too worried about SB but that turn raise by button screams of strength. I really don't think that 3 improved him and he was just slowrollin something strong on the flop.

Re: confused AJo
 

Not so fast man, we've had like 3 replies [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: confused AJo
 

I would have raised the river. SB's play is confusing but I think SB is slow playing an overpair. The play up to the river seems to say QQ KK or AA. If SB flopped a set wouldn't we have seen a check raise and not two check calls. I can see the post flop check call to keep people in but not the turn check call. A check raise on the turn is unlikely to take it down given its size and four players, so why not build the pot. My guess would be KJ or QJ and the set made him feel better about the top pair he had been nursing through the hand.

Although I would not have been able to work it out in real time. When I am confused I check the river.

Re: confused AJo
 

my only problem with that is you are ignoring the button who was the last to show agression on the turn. Maybe thats being too passive but I think theres a good chance that i'm not walking away with the pot.

Re: confused AJo
 

I'm not sure a raise is the best route to go here. I think these guys have been playing it pretty aggressive the entire hand and you and your opponents have done about everything you could to protect the hands you have. However, they continue to bet no matter what.

SB bet on river shows sign of strength to me. As if he doesn't want it to get checked through or is hoping someone raises his bet. I can't believe he would be hoping to bet a missed flush draw to try to scare the others off (that would seem stupid).
I would guess SB was playing a weak 777 and was scared of T8 Straight.

I'm not sure you gain or lose a lot with either decision raise or call. I don't want to see a 3bet back to me

Re: confused AJo
 

[ QUOTE ]
my only problem with that is you are ignoring the button who was the last to show agression on the turn. Maybe thats being too passive but I think theres a good chance that i'm not walking away with the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking that myself. How much do you like your hand when it goes bet, raise, reraise, cap, and 2 back to you. The way the Button played it, it seems like he may have slowplayed a straight then gotten worried about the full house on the river, but is he going to call 2 cold with T8 preflop. I guess maybe if it was suited.

Re: confused AJo
 

I'd raise the river. I think you are ahead a lot of the time here.

Re: confused AJo
 

I would raise the river, and then call a 3-bet.

Re: confused AJo
 

id fight all my instincts and just call. im afraid someone slowplayed a straight. i think the boat seems less likely.

bwana

Re: confused AJo
 

Everything is fine, except not raising the river. You have at least two of your opponents beat by the river, and your only concern is a full house. You raise SB and call a re-raise.

Re: confused AJo
 

Nice hand, the river call is the right play since you haven't improved as much as it might appear.

Re: confused AJo
 

My bad, I miss read the hand

Re: confused AJo
 

PF: AJo can be a tricky hand to play especially against this many callers.

FLOP: Good raise, thats how you protect your hand.
TURN: The bottons raise was strange, he might have slow played a set, but given that flop,it might be sketchy. He may also have 8,10s for the flopped straight, but you never now.

River: You have to call, the pot is too big to fold. Also, if you do raise will a weaker hand call you. Maybe the SB read you for an over pair and has trip jacks with a weaker kicker, but the botton behind you might have a straight and will raise if so (unless he is a whimp). And if the botton does not have a straight he might fold with a weaker hand. Calling is best because you don't risk having to put three bets in with a beat hand and you gain a bet from the overcall on the end.

Re: confused AJo
 

this is the most bizarre hand I've seen in a while.

still, i heart a river raise. i'm guessing it'll be 3-bet and you'll be a worse jack.

Re: confused AJo
 

Then why would you raise the river if you are aticipating a 3 bet. Why not go for the over call?

Re: confused AJo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Then why would you raise the river if you are aticipating a 3 bet. Why not go for the over call?

[/ QUOTE ]

why would we overcall?

call, Button overcalls, we win 2 bets
raise = at least 2 bets when first villain calls, good chance at winning a 3rd if he 3-bets

Re: confused AJo
 

I'd probably raise the river and call a three bet and hope SB wasn't slowplaying a straight that he planned to raise on the turn, but when it got raised up behind him he decided to slowplay it a little longer. If SB was slowplaying a Jack, then we probably have him outkicked.

Just calling doesn't look too bad though, as will almost certainly get an over an overcall from the button while a raise might make him fold. Or if he slowplayed a straight, he will three bet it which would stink but be hard to fold to unless SB made one also and capped.

Re: confused AJo
 

I call.
I fear the T8s.

my first post!

Re: confused AJo
 

congrats on your first post

do you think villain flopped a straight and didn't bet at all till the river? i think that's much less likely that a weak J.

Re: confused AJo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then why would you raise the river if you are aticipating a 3 bet. Why not go for the over call?

[/ QUOTE ]

why would we overcall?

call, Button overcalls, we win 2 bets
raise = at least 2 bets when first villain calls, good chance at winning a 3rd if he 3-bets

[/ QUOTE ]

Quantify "good chance" please, given that we got turn c/r.

Re: confused AJo
 

That wasn't a C/R, freshman.

Re: confused AJo
 

[ QUOTE ]
I call.
I fear the T8s.
my first post!

[/ QUOTE ]

I make it a habit to respond to all first posts I see. In this case, your first post is a reply to my post. That's like a double.

Unfortunately, no content to add except Good Luck.

11R2a1stP

Re: confused AJo
 

*grunch*

Flop -- you're behind to T8 (flopped straight), a set of 7's, 9's, or J's, or some sort of J9, 97, J7 two pair. otherwise you're ahead.

JJ or 99 would've (one hopes) raised preflop, so probably not those. especially since no one three bets on the flop. and, actually, since no one makes it three on the flop, all of these are unlikely unless it's a "watch my fabulous slowplay" move.

Turn: is a blank. MP1 bet out on flop, but not turn. and doesn't reraise, either. on the other hand, Button comes alive here. Hoping to push some folks out? Spurred by the redraw to a [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] flush?

River: SB now comes alive. J9 or J7, two pair from the flop, has you beat here. (as well as the flopped straight or flopped sets--but I'd expect heavier betting from the flop on from those)

Result: Either YHIG, or you're beat by someone who slowplayed it and saved you some bets along the way.

Re: confused AJo
 

I like it. Don't raise the river. You're either getting 3-bet by button, who will never fold a better hand and will nearly always raise this better hand, or he'll fold his counterfeited two-pair.

Re: confused AJo
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then why would you raise the river if you are aticipating a 3 bet. Why not go for the over call?

[/ QUOTE ]

why would we overcall?

call, Button overcalls, we win 2 bets
raise = at least 2 bets when first villain calls, good chance at winning a 3rd if he 3-bets

[/ QUOTE ]

Alright we didn't 3-bet the turn so we obviously put button on a better hand.

If he has a straight, he's not folding, he's 3-betting.
If he has a boat of any kind he's 3-betting.
If his two-pair was just counterfeited he's going to fold to a raise, but might call out of desperation for just one bet because this is $.5/1.

Add this to the fact that SB is betting into the turn bettor and raiser, and we're not assured to be ahead of him, and I think this river is a call.

Also if three bets are put in on this river we're not winning it often. I wouldn't be thrilled with that prospect.

Re: confused AJo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Nice hand, the river call is the right play since you haven't improved as much as it might appear.

[/ QUOTE ]

yea, that's sort of my thought. by the river you're either WA or WB...raising it here seems like it will cost you more when you are WB than it will reward you when you're WA.

SB is the enigma here. He calls 2 bets preflop (well, 1 1/2, but still), then calls 2 on the flop, then calls 2 more on the turn. *Then* bets out on the river. Maybe J9? and afraid of a set?

T8 is MUBS, que no? That hand should've been jamming the pot from the flop on, I'd think.

I don't know what other hand would compel SB to keep calling 2 and play OOP all the way to the river, only to come alive then.

Re: confused AJo
 

surely we can find a raise here on the end. If these players are donktastic, they call your raise with any piece. Worse hands also three bet.

Re: confused AJo
 

[ QUOTE ]
surely we can find a raise here on the end. If these players are donktastic, they call your raise with any piece. Worse hands also three bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, follow the action. Why would you raise? What worse hands are 3-betting?

Re: confused AJo
 

We are behind SB like 1/20 times here. Sets and straights would have not waited this long to wake up. If he's Laggy, nearly all jx combos 3 bet this. We especially get a 3 bet from QJ and Kj. Furthermore, there's a good chance button comes along. I think we have 60% equity over button, and I will be a little concerened if he 3 bets, but im not shitting my pants. It looks to me as though he may have strengthened a draw on the turn.

Re: confused AJo
 

[ QUOTE ]
We are behind SB like 1/20 times here. Sets and straights would have not waited this long to wake up. If he's Laggy, nearly all jx combos 3 bet this. We especially get a 3 bet from QJ and Kj. Furthermore, there's a good chance button comes along. Monstrous equity on the end. Monstrous.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no way SB is bet/3-betting JT here after just calling the whole way. If we raise here, we didn't we 3-bet the turn? What has changed? Button will typically overcall if we call or fold if we raise if he has just been counterfeited, and we get the same amount here anyway. Going to war on this river is not smart given the action so far. Also consider that we are behind button fairly often, IMO, and if we're not, we should be 3-betting the turn. Which is not something I think any of you want to do.

Re: confused AJo
 

Im going to go out on the line and say that almost any lag 3 bets JT on the end. You make a good point though about our situatoin not being much different on the turn.

Re: confused AJo
 

[ QUOTE ]
Im going to go out on the line and say that almost any lag 3 bets JT on the end. You make a good point though about our situatoin not being much different on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

We were never given the information that SB was LAG though, unless I missed something. And this same LAG would def be going wild on the flop with top pair.