Play a Hand With the Donks
 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP2 (t7515)
MP3 (t16402)
CO (t5035)
Button (t23220)
SB (t17325)
Hero (t13575)
UTG (t10165)
UTG+1 (t21350)
MP1 (t7495)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t800</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t800, SB calls t600, Hero calls t400.

Flop: (t2800) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t800</font>, Button calls t800, SB calls t800, Hero calls t800.

Turn: (t6000) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t1200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t2400</font>, SB calls t2400, Hero...

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

i hate to fold top two pair, but i think this is an easy one ... you have a straight, a flush or a set that could be beating you. if you're call closed the action, i might be more inclined to call. but mp3 can reraise and he has you covered.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

[ QUOTE ]
i hate to fold top two pair, but i think this is an easy one ... you have a straight, a flush or a set that could be beating you. if you're call closed the action, i might be more inclined to call. but mp3 can reraise and he has you covered.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're probably right. I wonder if I was supposed to play the flop differently.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

You're in for 2,800. You have to call the river.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t400 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP2 (t7515)
MP3 (t16402)
CO (t5035)
Button (t23220)
SB (t17325)
Hero (t13575)
UTG (t10165)
UTG+1 (t21350)
MP1 (t7495)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises to t800</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls t800, SB calls t600, Hero calls t400.

Flop: (t2800) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t800</font>, Button calls t800, SB calls t800, Hero calls t800.

Turn: (t6000) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets t1200</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to t2400</font>, SB calls t2400, Hero...

[/ QUOTE ]

God I hate this situation, but what you gotta remember is you're playing that QJ for straight value, not top pair, and not for two pair when there are so many other actors, one of whom defiantly made his flush given taht action. I think this is an easier fold than you want to believe.

Notice the min raise on the turn with the original bettor still to act? Calling here is just asking for trouble, I think you can pretty easily bail out here as you're only good if you river a boat...which isn't happening. I don't really like the flop call either (though it may be weak tight), but again, you're not playing this hand for top pair. I think a raise is much better than calling, to at least see where you were at, but I would have folded.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

he has to get to the river first.

Also it doesn't matter how much he is in for... thats gone.

All that matters is how he equates his pot equity, and whether the pot is laying him the correct price. If so, call, if not, fold

too many people say to themselves *oh well, I already put this much in, I mite as well put some more in* when its an obtuse way to look at things

To the OP, Id raise the flop a generous amount, and then re-evaluate on turn.

In this situation, Id be tempted to chuck it away on the turn.

The fear of MP3 raising again, and then you folding is too real to commit 2400 chips to the pot with no assurance of even seeing a river.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

Check-raising the flop with top pair bad kicker, in general, seems like an expensive way to play. Does anyone like betting out on the flop?

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

I would put in a big raise on the flop. There is a lot of money in there. Put in a pot sized raise or push.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

my bad, i dint see the check. In this case, Id only be checking the flop with the intention of raising.

Check calling is gonna see too many *scare* cards on the turn to fade multiple opponents.

Preference is definitely with the lead out in these spots..

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

I don't mind the way you played it, but if you play it that way, you're going to have to give it up to action on a heart, K, A, J or 9 on the turn. I do think you have the best hand on the flop, but this is a murky situation and I think a cautious approach is a good one here.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

gotta raise the flop. mp3's smallish probe bet on that draw heavy of a flop is praying to get raised. Would AA, KK bet so little and give them all perfect odds to draw?

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

fold....the chances are too great that you are beat or will be beat.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

Hahaha this thread is a bit overaggro...and by that I mean *way* overaggro. You can bet out (maybe, kinda, if you feel lucky) but once his bet gets not one, but two calls, I just fold.

You think your top pair is good after that flop action? They may be donks but they all have to be playing Q9s or worse to be losing to you at this point (go ahead, put all three of them on hands you beat. Be honest.) If for some reason your hand *is* best now, what percentage of the time, given that range, will it hold up by the river?

If I hit the call button by accident I would also have a very quick and easy fold on the turn.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

[ QUOTE ]

what you gotta remember is you're playing that QJ for straight value, not top pair, and not for two pair

[/ QUOTE ]

This kind of advice is very bad. Consistency has no place in game theory. Each decision is independent and such.

I lead the flop, but I don't mind checking with the intent of raising. I'd raise even after those callers though (perhaps even because of them). Not sure if this is right.

Very sure that folding the turn is right.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hahaha this thread is a bit overaggro...and by that I mean *way* overaggro. You can bet out (maybe, kinda, if you feel lucky) but once his bet gets not one, but two calls, I just fold.

You think your top pair is good after that flop action? They may be donks but they all have to be playing Q9s or worse to be losing to you at this point (go ahead, put all three of them on hands you beat. Be honest.) If for some reason your hand *is* best now, what percentage of the time, given that range, will it hold up by the river?

If I hit the call button by accident I would also have a very quick and easy fold on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good analysis. I take back what I said about the flop.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

I havent read the responses, so sorry if this has already been pointed out.

The pot size is incorrect. 4 Players in for 800 preflop + antes has to be over 3200 on the flop. I dont know how that changes things, but it does. A player betting 800 into 3200 on the flop looks very weak to me, and looks like a scared AK / JJ. Because of this, I do raise the flop, to something like 3600. If I'm called I do some serious reevaluating on the turn if I dont imrove.

Given the way the hand played out, I think its an easy fold on the turn.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

I agree with some of the others that there are two choices, push or fold. I'm not concerned over the MP3 hand which you probably have covered. It smells like a big pair or overcards.

The cold calls and raise by the other player and the small blind have me worried here.

The pot is offering 6:1 whereas you are about 10:1 with 4 shots to improve to the boat. However, in this case, I think there is a very high probability that at least one and probably two of your outs are dead.

I think it all comes down to whether or not you think your two pair is good at that point. If yes, then I think you push to try to either take it down there or make someone pay dearly for the right to try to river you.

If no, which I think is probably the case here, then I think you probably have to let it go. I suspect that the turn raiser may have something like two larger hearts.

IMHO, there is a high likelihood that your two pair is in 2nd or 3rd place and one or two of your outs are dead. So as much as I would really want to go forward here, I think I have to seriously think about letting go.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

You have enough to lead out and either play back at a raise, ro get a feel with what he has and decide what to do in the future and after a bet and a call I think i give it up

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

Bet at least 2,000 on the flop. Then I probably end up folding the turn min-raise by the button, losing a lot on this hand.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

Oops, sorry about my response yesterday. I thought that the jack of hearts was the river card, not the turn card.

Re: Play a Hand With the Donks
 

[ QUOTE ]
Check-raising the flop with top pair bad kicker, in general, seems like an expensive way to play. Does anyone like betting out on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a donk-min raiser I'm leading the flop most of the time FWIW. Check-call, lead the turn on a less draw heavy board perhaps.

RESULTS
 

Thanks for all the responses. It sure is tough to play top pair-bad kicker out of position, so I'm still not positive what to do with the hand. I think the line I chose, while passive, at least avoided building a big pot in an unclear situation.

I folded on the turn. The river was a 10 and it was checked around. The original preflop raiser showed KTs; the button and SB both showed AK (!) for Broadway and split the pot. I bet nobody scoring at home had them on those hands; but it turns out I actually was a huge favorite on the flop!

The dilemma of flop play is that there are so many possible draws out there, and if you want to bet enough to drive all those draws out, then you're going to lose a ton when it turns out you are already behind. I don't know if there's a good answer.

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
The dilemma of flop play is that there are so many possible draws out there, and if you want to bet enough to drive all those draws out, then you're going to lose a ton when it turns out you are already behind. I don't know if there's a good answer.

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The only good answer would have come from having an exact read on all three players.

You did what was reasonable by any sort of bayesian analysis. Those kinds of analyses aren't typically going to put all three opponents with a single King and some other card. Probably one, maybe two, but definitely not all three.

Similarly, with all the preflop and flop raising, you almost had to put someone on top or second pair, meaning your some of your outs were likely dead.

Hence my suggestion to push or fold, very black and white decision. FWIW, not that it's any consolation, I would have folded, too.

Hard to believe all three of those die-hards went the whole way. Sounds like you were in a really good game. Hope you got 'em in the end.