Proper AA turn play?
 

Or should this only be done on a rainbow paired flop? OR...is this too sophisticated for .50/1? OR... is it ok at .50/1 but only against non-calling stations?

No read on this opponent.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.25 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

There are a bunch of hands vilian will call a turn bet with, including any 2, any Q, any pocket pair, and any two [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]s. Some villians will call with even less. You basically just gave away a BB on this one.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

Bet the turn.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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Bet the turn.

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Why?

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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Bet the turn.

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Why?

[/ QUOTE ]1) You're giving the flush draw a free card otherwise.

2) You probably have the best hand. In any case, checking here doesn't give you any more information because a bet from the opponent on the river could be because he saw weakness + the scare card, or because he actually has a hand.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

I think you should have bet the turn.

Its difficult without reads, but I think that it would have been more likely for BB to c/r on the flop if he had trip 8's.

At the turn, I would have suspected BB of having either a smaller pocket pair or to be on a flush draw, and that a turn bet would have been for value.

So I think you need a good read on BB before you check this turn, because he may also have been calling down in the hope that you had unimproved overcards.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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Bet the turn.

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Why?

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A much better question is: why not?

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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Bet the turn.

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Why?

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A much better question is: why not?

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Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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Bet the turn.

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Why?

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Because monsters don't really live under your bed.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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Bet the turn.

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Why?

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Because you like money. Checking the turn makes sense if you're so far ahead of the Villain that the only way to extract additional value is to give the free card on the river. This isn't the case here.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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Bet the turn.

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Why?

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A much better question is: why not?

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Against a good opponent I know it's proper to check the turn here on a paired RAINBOW board. The reason is if he has trips you avoid the check/raise and call the river losing one bet instead of three. If he has nothing you keep him from folding and he may bluff the river or check/call if he thinks you have nothing. Therefore you gain one bet you wouldn't have gotten. I'm just not sure about a two suit board.

Against a good opponent you have to wonder why he would call a flop bet here on this board. Either he hit something or he has an A or K or small pair. If he has an A or K you want to suck one more bet out of him. I guess against a calling station you just go ahead and bet the turn.

So the question is: Do I have to go back through my 2+2 books to see if this is proper on a two-suit board or does someone already know?

And for anyone that didn't know about this play--now you do.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Bet the turn.

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Why?

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A much better question is: why not?

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Against a good opponent I know it's proper to check the turn here on a paired RAINBOW board. The reason is if he has trips you avoid the check/raise and call the river losing one bet instead of three. If he has nothing you keep him from folding and he may bluff the river or check/call if he thinks you have nothing. Therefore you gain one bet you wouldn't have gotten. I'm just not sure about a two suit board.

Against a good opponent you have to wonder why he would call a flop bet here on this board. Either he hit something or he has an A or K or small pair. If he has an A or K you want to suck one more bet out of him. I guess against a calling station you just go ahead and bet the turn.

So the question is: Do I have to go back through my 2+2 books to see if this is proper on a two-suit board or does someone already know?

And for anyone that didn't know about this play--now you do.

[/ QUOTE ]

You had no read. At these games I assume typical micro-player until proven otherwise.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

1. What would you guess is the ratio of "good opponents" to "not so good opponents" at Party .5/1?

2. Without digging through my 2+2 library, I find it hard to imagine anybody recommending giving a free card with the flush draw out. The flush draw will call a turn bet all day, but won't call a river bet unless it hits.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

I'd bet this turn. Most of the time you are missing bets there. I think you need reads (LAG)to check the turn.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

Why did you check? Checking this turn is terrible. Bet it every time. Sure the 8 will be out there sometime and you'll get check-raised and pay off but it won't be out there much more often.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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I'd bet this turn. Most of the time you are missing bets there. I think you need reads (LAG)to check the turn.

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Why would a LAG read make you check the turn?

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

so he'd bluff into me on the river.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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so he'd bluff into me on the river.

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Why not pick up a bet on both 4th and 5th street?

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

id only try that if you were out of position and had a knew he would see your weekness and try to bluff you out

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

I know what play your making and I do it all the time, but not on this board. The Queen is a great card for you, it might have hit him, in which case you will get paid off. Also the two clubs makes me less likely to give a free card, and it makes it more likely he may try some funky semibluff turn CR. So I bet this turn and pay off a CR every time on a board like this. In the case of a rainbow flop and say a 5 on the turn, I have no problem with your check.

-DeathDonkey

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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so he'd bluff into me on the river.

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That gets you one bet. But by betting the turn and river you have the potential to get two, three if he check-raises you with a worse hand (which lags are more likely to do, still it doesn't happen all that often).

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

HEPFAP Page 87 2nd paragraph. Doesn't say anything about two-suited boards though.

I thought SSHE mentioned this too but I'm too lazy to go look.

BTW, BB here had K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] so I really doubt he would have called a turn bet.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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I know what play your making and I do it all the time, but not on this board. The Queen is a great card for you, it might have hit him, in which case you will get paid off. Also the two clubs makes me less likely to give a free card, and it makes it more likely he may try some funky semibluff turn CR. So I bet this turn and pay off a CR every time on a board like this. In the case of a rainbow flop and say a 5 on the turn, I have no problem with your check.

-DeathDonkey

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Thanks Donk.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

Bwuh? He called a river bet, why would have have folded the turn?

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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Bwuh? He called a river bet, why would have have folded the turn?

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Because now he thinks I don't have anything and am trying to buy the pot. Would you think I had AA if you were in his position?

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

Check this turn only against some of your toughest opponents. The vast majority of the time you should be betting the turn and calling if you get check-raised.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

you right, I think betting the turn is a better play. What I meant to say was that if you want to check the turn, you want to do at against a LAG, this way there is a chance you'll win an extra bet on the river.(if he folds the turn UI)

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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BTW, BB here had K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] so I really doubt he would have called a turn bet.

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And yet he managed to find the dreaded bluff-call on the river.

HEPAP isn't written for the opponents you face in .5/1. This thread is a good example.

You vastly outplayed yourself on this one.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

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Bet the turn.

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Why?

[/ QUOTE ]1) You're giving the flush draw a free card otherwise.

2) You probably have the best hand. In any case, checking here doesn't give you any more information because a bet from the opponent on the river could be because he saw weakness + the scare card, or because he actually has a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]


I am a relative newbie and am a little confused about this. If a bet the turn here I am giving my opponent 4.25 to 1 pot odds, which means that they can call my bet properly. Therefore I am not putting them in a position to make a mistake.

I would also argue to bet here, but for different reasons. In the flush draw situation you will win this ~4 times out of 5. Therefore over 100 hands you will win 1BB 80 times and lose 1BB 20 time for a net win of 60BB. Of course things get more complicated since villian doesn't necessarily have a flush draw. But your in a situation where you are either way ahead or way behind, and I don't see any reason to think that you are behind.

Am I understanding any of this correctly? Please let me know where my mistakes are.

Re: Proper AA turn play?
 

You're right that you opponent is correct to call the turn bet if he's on a flush draw. But he's EVEN MORE correct to see the river for free if you let him.

Your second paragraph is basically the reason why you're betting. HU on the turn, every bet that goes into the pot is +EV for you and -EV for the flush draw. Note that even though it is right for your opponent to call (due to the overlay the pot provides), the turn bet itself is -EV for him.

This is one of many, many situations in which you cannot protect your hand, but you should still bet for value.