Some interesting spots
 

#1 - Assume that the table is of at least normal aggression.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, <font color="green">Hero...?</font>

Call or fold?


#2 - About a minute after the hand was over the PT autoload came in and I really messed this one up. Since I had no idea what the villian was like, take him as a lovely unknown.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="green">Hero...?</font>

Check or bet?

Always appreciated.

Brad

Re: Some interesting spots
 

hand 1

a call isnt bad especially with a hand that will play itself post flop

hand 2

bet

Re: Some interesting spots
 

In Hand #1 I think this is a call. Another guy stuck in the middle there and I'm definitely calling. Still, even with this case I think you can make it up postflop and more (I'd like to add that I think you said somewhere to never fold a pair in the BB at most tables [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]).

In Hand #2 I'm inclined to bet because SB smells a bit of overcards to nines.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Hand 1 is there some kind of trick or something?

Hand 2 I would bet all day. Unknown can easily have overcards and you also may have him reverse dominated.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

hand1: you are getting an immediate 10/3 that will likely be 12/3 .. you need to make up about 9BB(10/1 .. since you only win around 75% of the time with a set) if all 3 just call down its 7.5BB so I don't think getting 9 will be too difficult

hand2:3betting out of the SB usually means business something like AA-TT, AK-AJ most 2/4's are pretty passive, especially when raising out of the blinds, I think that is a fairly reasonable range .. open to opinions on it

27combos of bigpairs, 24combos of Ax .. getting raised on this turn would really suck, and I think the AK-AJ will take a stab at the pot on the river if you check behind here

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Hand 1. I was thinking fold, but with 4 opponents in the pot it might be ok to call because implied odds are huge if you flop a set.

Hand 2. Easy bet. I agree with what others have said about this hand. SB looks like overs to me. Unless he's tricky.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

I fold the first hand. If there were more peole involded I would call. But not 4 handed with 77 capepd preflop.

I would bet the turn in Hand. I think you just called the flop to raise the turn, so why not bet with the rag coming and him checking.
The chances for a check-raise are very slim, and don't give him a free card if he sits on overcards.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

I'm going to respond before reading other replies.

#1 I would fold.

For #2, I think you quite likely have Villain reverse-dominated. I would bet. Maybe he's being tricky and will checkraise, but I think he'll call with overcards now, and you might not get anything out of him on the river anyway.

Okay, let's see what others have said.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

The 1st hand really isn't that interesting. There is only one acceptable answer imo.

The 2nd choice really is more interesting then people seem to be making it out to be.

Brad

Re: Some interesting spots
 

[ QUOTE ]
a call isnt bad especially with a hand that will play itself post flop

[/ QUOTE ]

To some extent it will. But we could get tied to the pot chasing a set (or gutshot, on a coordinated board). Also, the chances of flopping a set and losing to a better one increase with this preflop action.

Also, when this much money goes in preflop, that cuts into our implied odds, especially since we could catch a set and still lose.

But if we do flop a set, we can expect a lot of action, since our opponents apparently have great hands. So I don't think calling is so bad, though I would fold.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Hand 1 I would fold 100% of the time. The implied odds are of course enormous but you have to hit your set on the flop to be able to continue. I wouldn't wanna pay an additional 3 big bets to find out.

Hand 2 is tougher (especially without a read) but I can' t see Villains check on the turn as a sign of him being afraid that you hit the trips. An attempt to set you up for a checkraise with AA, KK, QQ, JJ? Maybe but I would think that most of the time you will see a bet with those holdings. So against an unknown I would bet the turn an fold if he checkraises.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Responding blind....

Hand 1 I call.

Hand 2, I'm assuming that this is a WA/WB situation. In this hand we have position. I think that there could be two ways to play this considering that our opponent checked the Turn. We could bet the turn and bet the River. Or we could check behind on the Turn and then bet/raise the river.

I'm still coming to grips with these situations though, so this is most probably flawed in some deep and meaningful way.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Hand 2: I like the check on the turn, raise on the river when you're bet into.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: I like the check on the turn, raise on the river when you're bet into.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thinking about it further, I think that I would check the Turn and just call the bet on the River.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Hand 2: Bet and type "Reverse dominated like your mother".

-DeathDonkey

Re: Some interesting spots
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a call isnt bad especially with a hand that will play itself post flop

[/ QUOTE ]

To some extent it will. But we could get tied to the pot chasing a set (or gutshot, on a coordinated board). Also, the chances of flopping a set and losing to a better one increase with this preflop action.

Also, when this much money goes in preflop, that cuts into our implied odds, especially since we could catch a set and still lose.

But if we do flop a set, we can expect a lot of action, since our opponents apparently have great hands. So I don't think calling is so bad, though I would fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

exactly my feelings - when you flop a set and lose (1/4 of the time) you're gonna lose a monster pot.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Hand 1 is a clear fold. 3 bets to you hoping to hit a set, in a 4 way pot.

Hand 2 I check behind on the turn. This is to prevent a checkraise from an overpair, and induce a bluff on the river w/ overcards. On the river, it's an easy bet-call situation for any card, including a queen or king. I'm assuming there's a chance villain may bluff these cards. Raising on the river isn't viable because he'll just fold his overcard bluff to your raise and call or maybe 3-bet you if he has a good hand/read, leaving you in dire straits.

My thoughts
 

My thoughts are in white.

# 1 -<font color="white"> Hand one is a clear call. Everytime I don't flop a set I have to pay 3 SB, so everytime I do flop one I need to win 22.5 SB. Since other people are already putting in 13 SB, I only need to win 9.5 SB or 4.75 BB everytime I flop a set. In this hand I actually did flop a set and won roughly 13 BB. So even if I win 75% of the time I flop a set, I need to collect like 6.5 BB after the flop. This is very do able.</font>

# 2 -<font color="white">I really like a check in hand 2. If I have him beat, it is likely to just 3 outs, and he might bet AK on the river after I check behind (if he checks again I will surely bet). If you were the SB, this is the perfect time to go for a check raise with a hand like AA or KK. With the bottom card pairing, it gives anyone with 9x just 2 outs. Anyway I did bet and he check/raised me. I called because I might have 5 outs and the river bricked (it was a two) and I called. He had AA and MHING. Lesson learned as checking in this spot isn't a bad idea (with the intention of calling a river bet). FWIW he ended up being a 26/14 after 30 hands and if I knew that I would have checked for sure. </font>

Brad

Re: My thoughts
 

Shill,

Your analysis is good, but in my opinion you're giving the average 2/4 player too much credit in #2. I don't think your opponent will both have an overpair and decide it's a great checkraising opportunity all that often. I mean, he's got to have exactly AA to confidently figure that, because the board paired, you have just two outs.

Then again, I think most 2/4 players will fire again with overcards. Most of my opponents don't seem to give up the initiative very often, and I'm not sure what to think when they do.

I don't think the decision in #1 is so clear, but I don't have a strong opinion about it either.

Edit: I'm not actually sure that Villain's turn checkraise in Hand 2 is such a great play. Against you, maybe it is, but you're an unknown to him just like he is to you, I'm assuming. I think often our unknown Hero is going to have overcards or even QJ, QT, or JT and take the free card, when he would have called a turn bet with 0-8 outs (granted, the average will be closer to zero). Maybe the unknown Hero will then call on the river unimproved out of curiosity if he has an ace (but there are only two left), and maybe he'll even raise if he catches two pair, but sometimes he'll just fold to a river bet, and on occasion he'll actually improve to a straight or trips and win.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Alright, alright I just thought both hands through again. For your reasoning in Hand 1 Shill, doesn't that mean you would cold-call a cap would any pair? How do you know the inital raiser or even the 3-better will call the cap after you do? And if you're sure they'll call, teach me how to table select like you do.

Hand 2 I really like your thinking. At first I was like easy bet, lalala, I'm multitabling. But after you commented on how there could be a better line I thought about it more thoroughly. If you're not going to bet, then you would check behind and hope he bets the river with overcards. Villain right now most likely has only 3 outs left and it won't be a disaster to give him a free card. If we bet the turn villain folds with his weak draw or checkraises with a better hand which leaves us all dazed and disoriented. But if we check behind we can induce a bluff or let him catch an ace AND at the same time save bets against a premium hand. So clear now. Whew.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Hand 2: It's precisely because I don't have a read that I would bet the turn. I would save the more subtle and sophisticated check for a time when I knew it was against a player that it made sense to use it on.

However, this could be the difference of me playing almost exclusively 1/2. There are just too many calling stations there to pass up a bet in these circumstances against an unknown.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

[blind response]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is BB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, <font color="green">Hero...?</font>

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow - with three people who love their hand, we're really only taking this down with a set. We don't have immediate odds, so the question is: How much can we make up post-flop? Right now the pot is offering 10:4, but it probably will be 16:4 after MP3 and the Button call. Am I correct in saying we need to make up about 16 SB post-flop?

Against opponents who clearly love their hands, (AA-JJ likely) can we make this up? I think it's possible, but really close. I call, hoping for 7xy flop, with x and y all below 10!

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="green">Hero...?</font>

[/ QUOTE ]
Against an unknown, I bet here. It could easily be overcards, which might call here on the turn but won't after missing on the river. I certainly wouldn't think anything with a 3, and I also wouldn't think of an opponent betting the flop and then trying to c/r or c/c the turn with AA-TT or any other hand that beats us. (88 or 99)

OK, now to go see how poorly I did. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[i]EDIT: Screwed up the odds on the first one. We actually have 10:3, right? 2 from MP3, 3 from Button, and 4 from SB along with out 1 already in gives 10 and then we only need to call 3 more. It could be as good as 13:3 if everyone calls, (screwed that up even more) and we need about 8:1 or 24:3 so we need to make up 11 SB? Am I rounding the 8:1 too much? I'm not getting the same as Shill... [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: My thoughts
 

Hand 1: I think there is a problem with your calculations of the rationale for this cold call. Aren't you going to have an expensive second-best hand 25 percent of the time that you flop your set. How many BBs do you think you'll need to add in to your winning hands to cover those.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Hand 1. I think I'd fold this one out of position against a cap. SB is likely to lead any flop, and you'll have to act next, not knowing what will follow making it hard to play a flop that hits you marginally. You're getting about 10: 3 or 3.3:1, which is less than 1/2 the odds of hitting a set ( if i recall correctly), so i'd dump it.

Hand 2. If your top pair was higher, I think I might check to induce a bluff here, but nines are pretty vulnerable, in 6max i'm willing to give an unknown some credit for defending his blind like this (in limited experience, mind you). I think you've got the best hand and I bet.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Grunching.

I'll vote for fold the first, and bet the second. There's too much of a risk of being way behind a higher PP in the first hand, and you're only getting about 3.7:1 to hit your set. You'll probably get some hot action if you hit, but that's still a big deficit to make up.

It looks like villain 3bet with UI overcards in the second hand. Is he really the kind of guy who'd 3bet preflop, bet the flop, and then go for a turn check/raise? I've seen it, but against an unknown, I'd bet.

Re: My thoughts
 

I read your thoughts, but I still don't quite see eye to eye with you on the second hand. If you were the one with AA, do you actually think it's a good play to go for a turn check/raise when the board pairs and risk missing out on some value? Do you see this play often enough that it's worth altering the default line of the masses here against unknowns, or just against good/tricky players. How did you know to put him on an overpair and not AK so that you'd know to just call a river bet, and not raise it?

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Just for the record I grunch on all of these threads, I just don't like pointing it out all the time.

Am I missing something on Hand #2 or is that the world's easiest bet?
Hand #1 I would fold playing .5-1 but I don't know what "average aggression" is on a 2-4 table.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

1. Fold. If there were some limpers trapped between that increased the size of the pot, you could consider a call, but I muck this without second thought.

2. Bet and call a check/raise, re-evaluate on the river.

Re: My thoughts
 

Hey Brad,

w/ Hand 1, assume you miss on a flop like:
T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

whats your flop plan? peel? for how many bets?

Hand 2:
excellent: this is a fantastic wa/wb scenario...

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Grunching, highest played limit is $1/$2

1.) Fold. I figure I'm up against either at least two of: {AA-88, AK-KQ, AQ, AJ}. I'm not near PokerStove but I can't conceive cold-calling caps unless I have AA, KK, or AK.

2.) Bet/fold? I don't think SB would 3-bet (preflop) unless he has AA-99 or AK-AJ, but he's showing weakness HU, so I lean him towards having overcards instead of an overpair.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Hand 1 is a fold, I know implied odds are great and I love pocket pairs but I just don't think you can make that much up postflop.
I agree with everybody else here that hand 2 is a WA/WB situation in that most of the time you are way ahead and your opponent who is way behind is going to call down with AK every time here on this rag board. You might have been checkraised and been against the overpair this time, but most of the time you 3 outered him on this flop and you need to get value, especially in a 6 handed game.

Re: My thoughts
 

[ QUOTE ]
My thoughts are in white.

# 1 -<font color="white"> Hand one is a clear call. Everytime I don't flop a set I have to pay 3 SB, so everytime I do flop one I need to win 22.5 SB. Since other people are already putting in 13 SB, I only need to win 9.5 SB or 4.75 BB everytime I flop a set. In this hand I actually did flop a set and won roughly 13 BB. So even if I win 75% of the time I flop a set, I need to collect like 6.5 BB after the flop. This is very do able.</font>

# 2 -<font color="white">I really like a check in hand 2. If I have him beat, it is likely to just 3 outs, and he might bet AK on the river after I check behind (if he checks again I will surely bet). If you were the SB, this is the perfect time to go for a check raise with a hand like AA or KK. With the bottom card pairing, it gives anyone with 9x just 2 outs. Anyway I did bet and he check/raised me. I called because I might have 5 outs and the river bricked (it was a two) and I called. He had AA and MHING. Lesson learned as checking in this spot isn't a bad idea (with the intention of calling a river bet). FWIW he ended up being a 26/14 after 30 hands and if I knew that I would have checked for sure. </font>

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

you know what surprised me, is that on the second one, people didn't look at the range of hands that get 3bet out of the SB, or how bad getting raised on the turn usually is in this situation .. they just locked in overcards and went with it

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Hand 1: You are getting 13.5:3 on your call assuming everyone comes along. With this much pf action you will surely get paid handsomely if you hit your set but you mighty lose a truckload to a bigger set. I can take it or leave it. If I'm feeling lucky (85% I feel lucky) I call. If I'm skidding (15%) I fold and pick a better spot to invest.

Hand 2: I usually bet when checked to here. If he C/R's I call down or take a free showdown against an unknown. Since this is HU and an obvious steal attempt I am very skeptical of anything SB does here. His range of 3-betting hands could be HUGE in a defense posture. We have top pair we should like our chances at showdown.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

Hand 1: If I had limped 77 UTG, which I certainly would have, I would call 3 back to me in this spot. I guess that makes it a call here.

Hand 2: I think I am checking here and hoping to induce a bet on the river. That way if SB feels like he can take a stab at the pot with A high or whatever, I can snap off his bluff, but if he has an overpair I won't lose a lot of money when he checkraises me on the turn. If I bet here overcards are folding the majority of the time, and overpairs will raise or call me down, so I like the check behind.

Re: My thoughts
 

[ QUOTE ]
you know what surprised me, is that on the second one, people didn't look at the range of hands that get 3bet out of the SB, or how bad getting raised on the turn usually is in this situation .. they just locked in overcards and went with it

[/ QUOTE ]
I was very surprised that checking didn't get more votes on Hand 2 as well. Placing myself in SB's shoes, heads up against an aggressive player, representing AK by checking on the turn is the perfect play with an overpair. Against a passive player I'd just bet out.

I will grant that SB may have put Hero on a steal attempt, and therefore his range of hands might be much bigger, but barring reads I am going to think he is not on a resteal, and if he were on a resteal, he would certainly have just bet the turn.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

I would call the first hand -- you know you're probably behind a bigger pocket pair, so if you miss your set on the flop, it won't be too hard to give this up. On the other hand, the implied odds are huge if you do hit with this much action preflop.

Second hand -- I would raise on the flop, as your hand is vulnerable so you don't mind taking the pot down now, and I think there is reasonable fold equity. Also, if he 3bets you, you get some information that he probably has an overpair, and then you can probably fold the turn UI if he bets into you again.

Re: Some interesting spots
 

[ QUOTE ]
the implied odds are huge if you do hit with this much action preflop

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the pot will likely be very big, but implied odds don't work this way, exactly.

The more bets you put in (with you as a preflop dog), the more you have to make up postflop when you catch.

Re: My thoughts
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you know what surprised me, is that on the second one, people didn't look at the range of hands that get 3bet out of the SB, or how bad getting raised on the turn usually is in this situation .. they just locked in overcards and went with it

[/ QUOTE ]
I was very surprised that checking didn't get more votes on Hand 2 as well. Placing myself in SB's shoes, heads up against an aggressive player, representing AK by checking on the turn is the perfect play with an overpair. Against a passive player I'd just bet out.

I will grant that SB may have put Hero on a steal attempt, and therefore his range of hands might be much bigger, but barring reads I am going to think he is not on a resteal, and if he were on a resteal, he would certainly have just bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

It took longer than I expected, but grunching has finally made me feel like an idiot. You can make an argument for betting the turn, but it's certainly not "the world's easiest bet". Getting C/R'd here would certainly suck. I have actually made this check turn, autocall river play a lot in the past with decent success, but I've been trying to increase my turn aggression lately. This may not be the best spot for it.
However, I will say that it's important to consider the resteal possibility. I'm really not giving him credit for the overpair until the turn C/R; especially if he's at all aggressive.

Re: My thoughts
 

[ QUOTE ]
How did you know to put him on an overpair and not AK so that you'd know to just call a river bet, and not raise it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Villain's turn checkraise represented a strong hand.

Re: My thoughts
 

Per pokerstove, you will in fact lose somewhere in the neighborhood of 25-30% of the time that a seven comes on the flop. I think for this reason it's probably a fold, though with one more caller you cold call too IMO.