A dubious flop reraise
 

Commerce 20/40 full table. The game is terrible and I'm second on the list for a table change. I raise 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] UTG. A Rock at the table is two players to my left and cold-calls. Folded to button who folds faceup A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and says, "I'm folding this only because you're raising, so you better show something good." BB calls. Three to the flop.

FLOP: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks, I bet, the Rock raises. BB folds, I 3-bet...

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

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Commerce 20/40 full table. The game is terrible and I'm second on the list for a table change. I raise 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] UTG. A Rock at the table is two players to my left and cold-calls. Folded to button who folds faceup A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and says, "I'm folding this only because you're raising, so you better show something good." BB calls. Three to the flop.

FLOP: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks, I bet, the Rock raises. BB folds, I 3-bet...

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If he's a rock and he called an utg raise, then it should be a big hand he played passively preflop. If he's like most rocks then postflop he has precisely AK/AQ. Maybe AJ and maybe JJ.
So I'm not sure what a flop re-raise does for you - I guess you put him on something else so I'm curious what you think he had.

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

You need to give a better read, is he a rock who will bluff, ie a solid TAG, or is he a rock, that always has it,

If he is the later the will have AQ,AK here every time or a set.

However if he is a good player who knows your raising standards, and also knows wether you can lay down a hand, as this changes everything.

This hand is completey read dependant.

Read him and do what you thinkis best

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

Here's what went though my tiny mind in that few seconds between the Button showing a folded ace and the relase of my chips for my 3-bet.

Villain is good tight player who seldom gets out of line. He knows that I play as tight of a game as he does, but probably does NOT know my pf range UTG is as wide as it is. His cold-call pf shows respect for my UTG raise, but is not good enough to reraise, but yet too good to fold. There are some good players who will still give too much respect for my pf raises and cold-call with groups like QQ, TT, 88 and under as well as groups like AK, AQ, AJ.

Seeing the ace folded from the Button's hand preflop, I figure one of us would convince the other who doesn't have the other two aces. I was going to test which group of hands he has, and hopefully fold him by the turn. If he indeed has a big ace, I was sure I was going to find out quickly.

Yeah, I know, pretty thin raise.

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

This looks like spewing to me against a tight player. With him cold calling preflop he probably has you beat already. I think the reraise is just spewing imo.

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

HI Bambi,
[ QUOTE ]
However if he is a good player who knows your raising standards, and also knows wether you can lay down a hand, as this changes everything.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, I had been laying hands down, all correctly I must add. I consulted with a solid player who is a fellow 20/40 player that was waiting to be seated. He reassured me that there are many good players who are very astute and will take shots at laying down your hand, and the villiain is one to do so. However, he never said that he was sure that my reraise was a good idea.

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

An interesting opinion. I think that I would have to be sure that this is the kind of guy who definately fold QQ and TT on the turn, and might even fold AQ or AT. I don't really like your play, because not only does he have to fold a hand that beats you (maybe he has 88), but he also has to have raised instead of ditching on the flop. I think that your chances here are pretty slim. And metagame isn't too relevant because you're moving tables soon. Also, your hand has 2 outs, maybe none ...

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

Seems like spewage to me.

No draws out there so in my mind he's got a made hand. I think you are drawing to two outs.

I don't think you will move him off an ace, and you may have just run into a monster

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

You are definately in a marginal spot, but I like your reasoning and what I think is your plan to lead any turn intending for that to be the last money you put into the pot. Please correct me if I am wrong.

However, all the table talk leads me to think you are perceived as an uber nit (which you probably are [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]). A cheap way to loosen up your opponents would be to fire again on the river expecting to be called and then unashamedly flip over your 99.

If that was your plan all along, then you are just plain uber.

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

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An interesting opinion. I think that I would have to be sure that this is the kind of guy who definately fold QQ and TT on the turn...

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Since an ace was shown face up, it's reasonable to think that this rock is taking a shot at you. However, as tony points out, he has to both have a hand that beats you, and choose to make his move now.

In light of that, I'd want to have some confidence that this player will ditch his hand on the flop. I don't want to have to put in 4 SB bluffing at this pot. If 2 won't get the job done those times I can make him fold, then I'd just give up to this tight passive opponent who is raising my 3rd pair.

-eric

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

Ugh. I hate those spots. I think you have to either fold or three bet, which, you did, and i'd bet the turn UI and fold to a raise, and check/fold this river.

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

Hi esspo,

Yes, you are exactly correct to my plans for this hand, as are Eric and TxRedman. Being that the players at this table took turns stealing blinds in LP, I thought it was time for me to move someone better off this hand. I mean ATTEMPT to move him off.

My plan was to 3-bet the flop and bet the turn. Should the Rock had called both bets, I would check/fold the river unimproved.

RESULTS TO NO ONE\'S SURPRISE
 

This is just another unusual play that I've made and need reassurance that I played it incorrectly, or on occasion correctly. The Button showing his folded ace preflop really got me overthinking this hand, as if the Rock would make such a move on me. If I viewed this from the outside, I would have still put the Rock on AQ or AJs, and told the OP to check-fold. Here's the rest of the hand:

FLOP: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks, I bet, the Rock raises. BB folds, I 3-bet... Rock calls only. Headsup.

TURN: 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet, he calls.

RIVER: offsuit rag

I bet, he calls.

I say to him, "Sorry, I got lucky" and showed my turned set. He flashes A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and folds in disgust. Then he did something very unusual. This Rock character seldom speaks at the table other than to order food from the server. He then says in a low voice, "What? You thought I had [censored] and was bullsh!tting you with a raise? Just because I only cold-called preflop?" He then mumbled something else under his breath that I selectively chose not to hear. I raised a couple more times pf without callers and was quickly called to another game.

I did learn one very important thing. The Rock does NOT bluff. Thank you all for the responses and confirming my obvious suspicions.

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

i would have said "please don't fold face up while there is still action."

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

It may be where I play, but I think you did the right thing here on the flop play. Rocks are Rocks, but they are not stupid (generally), and you need to know where you are at in the hand. You also need to rock his world, no pun intended.

You can't know if he really has a bigger pair, an Ace (which I would not give him credit for), or a MLK hand he hopes will flop well.

He also may think he can make you fold, and you have to decide what he holds. You put the pressure back on him to decide where his hand is at as he has to consider you may hold JJ.

Putting an extra small bet up front at times saves a big bet at the end.

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

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It may be where I play, but I think you did the right thing here on the flop play. Rocks are Rocks, but they are not stupid (generally), and you need to know where you are at in the hand. You also need to rock his world, no pun intended.

You can't know if he really has a bigger pair, an Ace (which I would not give him credit for), or a MLK hand he hopes will flop well.

He also may think he can make you fold, and you have to decide what he holds. You put the pressure back on him to decide where his hand is at as he has to consider you may hold JJ.

Putting an extra small bet up front at times saves a big bet at the end.

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You realize rocks don't really play the way you're describing, right? They're not tricky. They're not known for pulling moves. You know where you are in this hand when he raises you on the flop.

b

Re: A dubious flop reraise
 

[ QUOTE ]
However if he is a good player who knows your raising standards, and also knows wether you can lay down a hand, as this changes everything.

This hand is completey read dependant.

Read him and do what you thinkis best

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It's also a bit easier to read since the pot is 3 way and not HU when he raises.

b

Re: RESULTS TO NO ONE\'S SURPRISE
 

"I say to him, 'Sorry, I got lucky'."

That's a worse play than the flop play. And you know it.

Regards,
Andy