YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

2/5 NL. I am playing well and have run my stack to ~1800. Villian is only one to have me covered with ~2200. I have him pegged as a semi decent player. He has run well, but has some skills to back him up.
I believe the pre-river action are irrelevant. I end up with the nut quads. I lead out a bet of $60 and he raises to $150. I verbally announce "raise" and havent touched my chips. he now declares, "I'm all in."
What do you do? Do I make a min raise hoping he really does go all? He may be shooting an angle and only wants me to raise the minimum so he can call and see my cards. Do I make a normal raise or do I push all in?

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

you wait for his action and call, put in what you oringally planned to [the min I guess would be appropriate] and then wait for him to hang him self, DO NOT just throw all your chips in before he does.
His verbal bet is binding none the less, and you can have the floor rule it after.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

In this situation, I suppose I would confirm his all in ("You're all in? Ok, I call"), and wait for him to table his cards.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

Say, "I call" and push all your chips in the middle.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

What is the size of the pot? That would help in determining what kind of bet you should make. I'd probably make a bet about the size of the pot, unless it's close to the size of your stack, which then I'd go all in. After all, you have the nuts. You want him to call. You don't make a dime more if he folds. You say the villain is a decent player. I'm assuming you held a pocket pair for your quads? I'd look at it like this then:

1) He was trying to bluff you. You go all in, he folds.

2) He has a full house He raises you enough to get you to call and pay him off (in his mind). He will call your raise, or go all in if he has the best boat possible.

3) He has an overpair for two pair. Unlikely for him to call an all in with the board paired.

I think the only way your all-in works is if he has a full boat. I might err on the side of caution, since you have the nuts. Make a decent sized raise. All in would scare him away in 2 of 3 scenarios. I'm assuming there are no flushes/straights possible. Hope some of this makes sense.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

[ QUOTE ]
I lead out a bet of $60 and he raises to $150. I verbally announce "raise" and havent touched my chips. he now declares, "I'm all in."
What do you do?

[/ QUOTE ]

Verbally state "I call your all-in reraise of my raise" and don't breathe until you get a reaction from the dealer and the player. Make SURE the dealer has registered both yours and his bets. Play it off meekly, like you're uncertain, but don't touch your chips until you're sure the dealer has registered the correct action, thus ensuring your win. Verbal action is, after all, BINDING.

al

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

Why are you guys making this complicated? Just ask the dealer if his all-in raise is binding even though it was out of turn (in that he declared himself all-in after you said raise but before you said how much.) Doing so doesn't tip the strength of your hand at all.

If the dealer says it's binding you're fine; if he says it isn't binding then just play poker.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

that is exactly what I was thinking. Look to the dealer and play dumb. Ask the dealer if his all in stands, and play accordingly.

Since you never declared how much you were raising, I dont know if your bet would be considered completed.

To me this is a borderline angle shoot, but at the same time maybe he is so excited with his boat that he wants to get all your money.

Im curious how it played out

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

Agreed with the two previous posters. Look immediately to the dealer to confirm that the out-of-turn all-in re-raise is binding.

If not, put in a pot size raise.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

I hope you stacked him.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

look at the dealer at go "omg is he really all in? crap. FLOOR!! HE said ALL IN out fo turn, is that binding?"

then bitch and moan for like 3 minutes about how he went all in out of turn, until the opponent is sure that you have nothing.

the go "i call. quads." and punch him in the face.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

[ QUOTE ]
look at the dealer at go "omg is he really all in? crap. FLOOR!! HE said ALL IN out fo turn, is that binding?"

then bitch and moan for like 3 minutes about how he went all in out of turn, until the opponent is sure that you have nothing.

the go "i call. quads." and punch him in the face.

[/ QUOTE ]

i like this. or say "well, in that case, I raise the minimum" and ask the dealer how much that is. then giggle uncontrollably when he pushes and say "I trap you, Mr. Son of the Bitch."

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

[ QUOTE ]
Do I make a normal raise or do I push all in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Look concerned and say "How much is that?"

If he's going to resist actually putting all his money in the pot, let's get on with the floor-calling. It's tempting to be cute about it, but everyone will just as much enjoyment out of your crushing him quickly as they would from your crushing him slowly.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

Well, what happened?

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

Say call. He is binded to it now. If he said all in it is binding.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

How did it feel to have ~720BB at the table and see Villain's embaressingly "short" stack?

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

[ QUOTE ]
Say call. He is binded to it now. If he said all in it is binding.

[/ QUOTE ]
What the hell is wrong with you people? It's unclear at best if villain's "all-in" is binding or not. In some places action out of turn is binding, in some places it's not, in some places checks out of turn are binding but bets and raises aren't.

Why risk your opponent being able to call or fold just in case his all-in doesn't happen to actually be binding? Just ask the dealer for Christ's sake.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

How could Villain possibly dig himself out of that hole if OP said, "I call."?

Villain: "Oh, I was just kidding."

People used to get shot for pulling stunts like this.

Shot.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

[ QUOTE ]
look at the dealer at go "omg is he really all in? crap. FLOOR!! HE said ALL IN out fo turn, is that binding?"

then bitch and moan for like 3 minutes about how he went all in out of turn, until the opponent is sure that you have nothing.

the go "i call. quads." and punch him in the face.

[/ QUOTE ]

Glen: Yeah I know what you'd like to do. You'd like to find the guy who did it, rip his still beating heart out of his chest and hold it in front of his face so he can see how black it is before he dies.

Davy: Actually, I was thinking of filing a grievance with the union.

Glen: Well, the world's a twisted place.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

[ QUOTE ]
How could Villain possibly dig himself out of that hole if OP said, "I call."?

[/ QUOTE ]
Is this really that difficult? Villain said "I'm all in" after hero said "raise" but before hero either said how much he was raising or moved more chips out.

This entire thread is predicated on what to do in case the villain is shooting an angle (intentionally or not) since he has acted out of turn. There are a few possibilities:

-Villain is intentionally shooting an angle. He knows that his action out of turn is not binding and is waiting to see what hero will do. He hasn't actually acted but now gets to see hour hero reacts.

-Villain is unintentionally shooting an angle. He doesn't know that his acting out of turn is not binding but still gets to see that his opponent is willing to go all-in. It's improbable but he might realize he acted out of turn and still be able to get away without putting all his chips in.

In either of the above scenarios, simply asking the dealer whether villain's all-in is binding allows our hero to react appropriately without tipping the strength of his hand.

If anyone can come up with a reason for not doing this I'd like to hear it.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

If he is intentionally shooting an angle, then he deserves to be forced to push all-in. If he wasn't intentionally angle shooting then he won't mind having to go all-in as that was his intention anyways.

It's a win-win (or lose-lose if you're villain) situation.

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

[ QUOTE ]
If he is intentionally shooting an angle, then he deserves to be forced to push all-in.

[/ QUOTE ]
As if this matters. That's exactly why it could be an angle, slapnuts!

Re: YMTC on a possible angle shooter
 

I'm pretty sure we're both arguing the same point, except I am taking a "shoot first, ask questions later" approach (much like the state of Florida).

Results
 

Ok, here is how it all panned out.
I looked at the dealer with a dumbfounded look. she looked ever more befuddled and called the floor. he stated both our actions were binding. i must make a raise, anything i wanted, and he was to go all in.
this is where i acted like a jerk. i made a minimum raise. waited for him to push his stack in and confirm he had me covered. then i called and waited him to table his boat and i meekly show quads. SHIP IT.
the final board and hands were as follows.
Ac,10c,4d,10h,Jc
a very scary board as there was a straight possible, a flush possible and a pair. I was hold 10-10 for quads. Villian showed AA for a boat.

Re: Results
 

So you were both going all in either way, glad to hear there was no angle shoot. And Congrats on the nice hand and pot!

Re: Results
 

yes, he was not shooting an angle and was genuinely excited about his big hand. I kind of wanted to get opinions to see what people would do if they thought some scumbag was playing an angle.

Re: Results
 

you should have raised and only left yourself one chip. then go into the tank after his action. mutter something about pot commitment. ask him if he has a straight flush. call his forced one chip all in bet only after you've had the clock put on you. then slow roll him.