fold kk preflop vs solid player?
 

hand from the $10 rebuy, avg is 15k, ~700 left

villain is ender555... I can tell he's a solid player, and he also posts at pocketfives.com. He played recklessly at the beginning of the rebuy but tightened up once he built a stack. At one point I raised to 500 (50/100 blinds) with AK UTG after not having played a hand in quite some time (stack = 6000, he has me covered) and he went allin. I folded, very confident he had KK or AA, which he said he did, and that he thought I'd call because he'd been reckless earlier. Pot if I push (obviously it's push or fold) is 40k, I have 17k more to push. With all this information, does he have QQ/AK enough to call?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (9 handed) converter

saw flop

CO (t22805)
Button (t16425)
SB (t7275)
BB (t11940)
UTG (t22885)
UTG+1 (t13277)
Villain (t21887)</font>
MP2 (t8294)
Hero (t20353)</font>

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t200, <font color="#CC3333">Villain raises to t800</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t3200</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Villain raises to t10000</font>

Re: fold kk preflop vs solid player?
 

Listen to Dan Harrington, for all the times you fold KK preflop it's just not worth it. What's the stats, if you pick up KK at a full table it's 24:1 someone has aces?

Take the odds.

Re: fold kk preflop vs solid player?
 

Agreed. He could have QQ or AK as well. Do not idolize Hellmuth.

Re: fold kk preflop vs solid player?
 

24:1 odds that he has aces means nothing in this situation
the reason I ask is that in his shoes, considering myself a solid player, and considering me as an opponent a solid player, I would definitely not make that play with AA only (should I make it with QQ? AK?)

Re: fold kk preflop vs solid player?
 

I didn't read the post, but the answer is no

Re: fold kk preflop vs solid player?
 

I would say there's no way you can fold, ESPECIALLY given that he knows you have laid down AK in this situation against him before. He knows you have to have AA or KK to call, and what are the odds you have them? If he has the bullets, poker just dictated with the AK hand and this one that you are giving him your chips here.

Re: fold kk preflop vs solid player?
 

oh I forgot to mention... he didn't know I had AK
originally I asked what he had, he said ATs (the hand he beat my AQ with early in the rebuy), I said I had 55, he said just kidding I had bullets, I figured you would have called because of my allin earlier (I absolutely believe him)

so yeah, I took like 2 minutes for that fold, so if anything he thinks I'm crazy and considered calling an allin with 55 and/or think that he has no credibility.

REPHRASE
 

ok this didn't get as much attention as I was hoping, so let me rephrase it.

Most of you consider yourself solid players: would you make the play that the villain did with any hand other than AA? That's really what I'm asking here. I know that I would not, and if other solid players agree, than hero should fold, since he knows that villain is a solid player. If solid players (even just a few) here would make the play with qq or ak then hero should call. Does anyone disagree with this reasoning? If not, would you make this play with QQ or AK (or a lesser holding)?

Re: REPHRASE
 

It would obviously depend on how I'd perceived you to be playing before this hand, but there are plenty of times where I'd be pushing with JJ/QQ/KK/AA or even AK in villan's spot.

I think folding KK here would be a bad play.

Re: REPHRASE
 

If he thinks you are capable of laying down a big hand, then he very well could be making this move with AK, JJ, or QQ and trying to get you to lay down AK or QQ. You only get so many chances in one of the big tourneys to get your money in with Kings, so you need to take it. Folding KK preflop in a big tourney is definitely -EV

Re: REPHRASE
 

I would certainly do it with QQ, and I would often do it with AK against a player I have covered.

AK is favored against a pair, after all, if the pair has a decent chance of folding.

Re: fold kk preflop vs solid player?
 

You both had healthy stacks (above average) before this hand. Why would either of you get involved like this without a strong holding? I don't think villain plays this way with AK/QQ. There's a chance he has KK, but when I see the 3rd raise in a cash game it almost always means he has AA. If you push preflop, you know he's calling. One way to play it is to call, then push any non-Ace flop (which is likely). If a Q or J hits the flop and you push, villain will have something to think about.

Re: REPHRASE
 

ok, this is what I was looking for - good players saying that they would play qq that way (I personally disagree, but that's ok)

I called and lost to aa, but thought about it logically and realized that I wouldn't have made that play with anything but aa and wondered if it was the case for other solid players

Re: REPHRASE
 

you guys would play it that way?

The bet was 100 and villain went in for 10,000.

That's a fold.. you need better pot odds than that to call, even if you're sure he does that w/ QQ too.

Re: fold kk preflop vs solid player?
 

I can't see laying this down.

Re: REPHRASE
 

what?

If he does that with qq too (assuming he does it with only qq and aa) it means you're 50% vs his range and you're getting 2.5:1 on your money... it's only a fold if you're very confident he only does it with aces

I have no idea what 'the bet was 100 and villain went allin for 10,000' means, but even if that was the case, it would be a +EV call (barely) if his range is QQ-AA

Re: REPHRASE
 

[ QUOTE ]
you guys would play it that way?

The bet was 100 and villain went in for 10,000.

That's a fold.. you need better pot odds than that to call, even if you're sure he does that w/ QQ too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where do you get 100 bet from? Looks like a raise of 3200 from hero then push of 10k.

And the answer on folding KK is no. Not even close.

Re: REPHRASE
 

[ QUOTE ]
you guys would play it that way?

The bet was 100 and villain went in for 10,000.

That's a fold.. you need better pot odds than that to call, even if you're sure he does that w/ QQ too.

[/ QUOTE ]

What bet was 100? Hero raised to 3200, then Villain re-raised to 10,000.

Like I said, it's certainly not a call 100% of the time situation with KK there, but it's definitely a call more often than not one.

Good players want you to call when they have AA and a raise that big is borderline. If he'd gone all-in instead of making it 10k and I think he's at least a half way decent player, I'm calling with KK. If nothing he's shown so far makes me think he's any good, I probably fold and let him take the 3200 chips.

Again, it has a lot to do with your read on the villain. Based on the information given, I'd be calling here.

Re: fold kk preflop vs solid player?
 

get serious. push him in, he is pot committed and if he shows aces so be it. What you think is solid for your play could be viewed as weak-tight by him and he could be making this move with a wide range.

Re: fold kk preflop vs solid player?
 

Laying down KK in low-limit games is -EV.

End of Thread.

Indy

Re: REPHRASE
 

[ QUOTE ]
you guys would play it that way?

The bet was 100 and villain went in for 10,000.

That's a fold.. you need better pot odds than that to call, even if you're sure he does that w/ QQ too.

[/ QUOTE ]


lol damn thats what i get for reading two postss...


I was using the situation described in the 'early EV All-ins' and put it in here.

Silly silly me.

Damn that makes me feel stupid.