TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

You can avoid every coin flip/race situation presented to you in a SNG and still win the SNG. (in other words you can win SNGs consistently without having to win a coin flip/race at least once during each SNG)

<font color="blue">I'm asking this question because I seem to be in alot of SNGs where my success is directly impacted by the outcome of a race situation (AK v. PP, etc.) I want to know how the good SNGers do it and whether they stay away from these or play such hands in a way to take the race out and replace it with skill re: post flop play --interested in the feedback </font>

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

The better players make up so many chips in the beginning of the tournaments, they rarely have to race off for all their chips.

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
The better players make up so many chips in the beginning of the tournaments, they rarely have to race off for all their chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

pokertracker tells me that i make a heap of chips early but i must be a crap player because i'm more often than not one of the short stacks entering say the 5th level of blinds

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

Not only is it difficult to win an MTT by avoiding ANY coin-flips, I would guess that a significant percentage of tourney winners were all-in pre-flop and sucked out on someone in order to get there. Very, VERY few MTT's are won on skill alone.

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

may be true but question directed specifically at SnG's

stoneii

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

I guess this depends on what you mean by 'avoid' coinflip race situations.

You WILL need to push all-in occasionally with hands that will result in a race situation if you are called. Your pushing is an attempt to avoid getting the call, but sometimes you will get called anyways.

So... I answered false. You could probably avoid every call that you thought was going to be a race (up until the final 2) but you will be pushing and it will have the same effect occasionally. AND, by the final 2 (or even 3) you will need to race.

Also, those times that you build a stack, you will still want to race occasionally even earlier because this can be a good way to deal with short stacks. Their chips are worth more than yours, and so as long as your survival isn't on the line, the races are often worth it.

For example, if I hold 33 in the BB (blinds 100/200) and a stack of 4000, and then the SB pushes his last 600, I'm calling thinking I'm looking at a race.

Regards
Brad S

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

IMO, avoiding race situations in the first four levels is key. But once down to about 4-5 players, as the stack/blind ratio decreases to the point where most of those players are holding 10bb or less, then the confrontation becomes almost inevitable. In order to survive into the $ you have to take a risk or two. Just don't do it early. Let the Gus Hansen wannabe's mudwrestle all they want in the early rounds. Of course, when you have the stuff you stomp them, but avoid the 50/50s.

Opinions are like A**holes, everybody is entitled to at least one. There are others that play this just the opposite. They take the risks and build the big stack early, or go find another game. Just not my style.

Doc

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Opinions are like A**holes, everybody is entitled to at least one.

[/ QUOTE ].

Lmao [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] - stoneii

Of course what you really need is a one armed consultant's viewpoint - saves all the "on the one hand...." [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

By playing to avoid coin flip you will also be indirectly playing to avoid fold equity.

Last 3/4/5/ you are in the sb or bb and have AK or 77+. Button raises x3BB. I will probably be reraising all in. If the button is stealing or raising a low Ax or small PP or Kjo then they may fold, hence the fold equity. If they Have a PP to face my Ak or Ax to face my PP then we have a coinflip.

I cant see how playing to avoid coinflips and the resultant passivity could not have a massive detrimental effect on your bubble play.

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
one armed consultant?

[/ QUOTE ]

lmao, too.

But it is true. After playing the SNG games together for a year, you and I can both name the ones that play the "Big Stack or Bust" approach.

Doc

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

Definitely false. Avoiding coinflips is just a guideline of playing SNGs. Having all your allins at the end successfully steal the blinds is what we pros technically refer to as "running good". If called, it's usually a coinflip or worse.

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

It's hard to avoid coin flips in late stages but I want to stick my chips in first. Like if you reraise push with AQ get called by min raiser 55 or some small pairs. The folding equity alone is enough to give you the edge.

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

This can only be true if you are VERY LUCKY.

Think about it... this means that you'd have won almost every pot you played. Also, you were never challenged whenever you took a stab (such as being first to act holding AK on a rag flop).

Late in the game, you simply CANNOT sit around waiting for AA|KK|QQ, which are the only hands that can keep you out of a race.

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

In this situation, are you really a coinflip in the absolute sense of the word?

Yes, if you are called, its around 50/50. But say 60% of the time you push this, the other guy will fold, 15% of the time you'll be a coinflip, and 10% of the time you'll be dominated and 5% you'll be dominating(Just guesstimated #s), then will lose only 17.5% of the time (assuming u win all the times you're dominating and lose all the times you're dominated).

Thus should pushing that really be considered a "coinflip" even if you are called?

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In this situation, are you really a coinflip in the absolute sense of the word?

Yes, if you are called, its around 50/50. But say 60% of the time you push this, the other guy will fold, 15% of the time you'll be a coinflip, and 10% of the time you'll be dominated and 5% you'll be dominating(Just guesstimated #s), then will lose only 17.5% of the time (assuming u win all the times you're dominating and lose all the times you're dominated).

Thus should pushing that really be considered a "coinflip" even if you are called?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you elaborate my point a little more. If I stick my chips in first and there is decent FE, that's technically not a coinflip. Or even you call a short stack push with AK hope you either see a pp or AQ and actually he shows pp. These are not really "coin flips". So the original question is a little bit vauge. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
You cannot expect to dominate your opponent evertime you go all in.

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

No way. In fact, I doubt it is possible to win SNGs consistently without putting more than your "fair share" of bad beats on other players (this usually means winning with a dominated hand on the bubble). Correct SNG play necessitates stealing the blinds, which means you will sometimes be called by hands that make you a 3:1 dog or worse.

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

Unless the levels are 30 minutes long or higher, the blinds go up too fast for you to do well consistently without getting into coin fliip situations and winning them.

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

This is a great point, so even though you wind up in a lot of race situations near/at the bubble it is due primarily to stealing by utilizing the FE of your stack by getting it all in PF. By pushing you reduce race situations by increasing the % opponents fold.

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

How about a general rule: Avoid them early, create them late.

Re: TRUE OR FALSE ?
 

now THAT i like. i guess i have always thought this way but never thought about it enought o put words to it. but i agree, you avoid them early, and then make other people try and avoid them later.