87s UTG (mark seif)
 

i watched mark seif play this hand in the AP 50/100 game. He played it super weird and i want thoughts on this line.

4 handed

Hero has 8c7c UTG.
SB here is too loose and far too passive
BB here is a TAG

Hero raises, Button folds, both blinds call


Flop As5hKs

Checked around


Turn Jd

Checked to Hero who bets, both players fold. He clicks "show" and gives off his bluff.


Seif is way better than me but i can't see why he didn't bet that flop? What does that accomplish--it's like the perfect board? it should be obvious to both players that seif would have bet any pair on the flop there so he should call with any piece.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

Id say this guy=n00b.

Only reason I can see not to bet the flop is because they will put him on a monster and fold. But its not like they will fold an A or K, and they woulda 3bet PF with a PP>7. So I dont see any point in making this play other than to avoid a CR bluff on the flop.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

fixed my post. he didnt have a pair (the 7 was actually a 5)

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

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fixed my post. he didnt have a pair (the 7 was actually a 5)

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Now I like it even less, because anything that CRs is ahead of him anyways.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

The only thing I can think of, is that the flop check could be an attempt to represent a monster, even though AK/AA/KK should still bet here. I think this is better HU though on something like a KK5 flop. He could also have checked the flop thinking it was likely that someone had something and he was done w/the hand, but when both players checked again on the turn, he decided to take a shot at the pot. Both somewhat weak reasons but they're possible.

Baron: off topic but I logged into absolute the other day to cashout some rakeback payment and checked out the 50/100 game and saw you sitting there, were you actually playing that game?

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

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He played it super weird and i want thoughts on this line.

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His line is awful.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

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Baron: off topic but I logged into absolute the other day to cashout some rakeback payment and checked out the 50/100 game and saw you sitting there, were you actually playing that game?

[/ QUOTE ]


no, i definitely wasn't playing in it. probably just sitting down because i was bored. sometimes when my fish go up there its tempting but i show restraint

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

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His line is awful.

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I can see how it would seem awful to anyone who automatically bets 100% of the time on the flop when they raise preflop.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

This is a good spot to follow up a pfr with.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

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His line is awful.

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I can see how it would seem awful to anyone who automatically bets 100% of the time on the flop when they raise preflop.

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It seems awful because it is awful.

1: On the flop, he only has to take the pot down 1/7 times with a bet to make betting correct. On the turn, he has to win 1/4 times and he is more likely to be called by any pair .

2: Bluffing flops like this increases his EV when he has a pair of aces or kings or better.

3: Checking the flop encourages SB/BB to take a shot at the pot on the turn.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His line is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see how it would seem awful to anyone who automatically bets 100% of the time on the flop when they raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems awful because it is awful.

1: On the flop, he only has to take the pot down 1/7 times with a bet to make betting correct. On the turn, he has to win 1/4 times and he is more likely to be called by any pair .

2: Bluffing flops like this increases his EV when he has a pair of aces or kings or better.

3: Checking the flop encourages SB/BB to take a shot at the pot on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


i thought it was awful too. wtf-------he hit a dream flop against the blinds and checked. why?!

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
His line is awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see how it would seem awful to anyone who automatically bets 100% of the time on the flop when they raise preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems awful because it is awful.

1: On the flop, he only has to take the pot down 1/7 times with a bet to make betting correct. On the turn, he has to win 1/4 times and he is more likely to be called by any pair .

2: Bluffing flops like this increases his EV when he has a pair of aces or kings or better.

3: Checking the flop encourages SB/BB to take a shot at the pot on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


i thought it was awful too. wtf-------he hit a dream flop against the blinds and checked. why?!

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He plans to check the flop next time he flops a monster?

I'm not saying this is a great idea, just trying to play devil's advocate.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

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He plans to check the flop next time he flops a monster?

I'm not saying this is a great idea, just trying to play devil's advocate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mark 5:6-20...For Jesus said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And the demons answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. And Legion besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

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[ QUOTE ]
He plans to check the flop next time he flops a monster?

I'm not saying this is a great idea, just trying to play devil's advocate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mark 5:6-20...For Jesus said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. Jesus asked him, What is thy name? And the demons answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. And Legion besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea. And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

It is a joke. It might not be a good one.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

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3: Checking the flop encourages SB/BB to take a shot at the pot on the turn.

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It varies. Sometimes, players who habitually play back on the flop are less likely to take a shot on the turn. To a lot of players, it looks very suspicious when the PFR checks. I'm not saying it was a great play by Seif, but it's hardly terrible.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

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It is a joke. It might not be a good one.

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I wasn't sure if it was a joke, or a clever way of saying my suggestion was stupid, etc. I was just trying to direct the conversation away from "this is the stupidest play ever!" and hope others could chime with possible interpretations of how this could be correct.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

I don't see why everyone is upset about this. I think Mark Seif plays bad but I don't think he got this hand wrong really. I don't use this play ever, but I have seen the "check behind when an ace flops and I don't have an ace" line work for other people, and I can see why when considering how I react when somebody does this to me, which is to go into a shell and fold at the first opportunity.

The other players in the hand could have been tight, and perhaps Seif thought there was a very good chance one of them flopped a hand that he wouldn't give up, but then when the turn got checked to him again he decided to bet.

Really, I think calling this play awful is a bit harsh, especially if the players are not intimately familiar with him this line looks an awful lot like monster.

-Michael

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

Just to let u know Mark Seif sucks at limit and is my friends biggest donator in the AP 50/100 game.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

I agree with Michael. I'd bet the flop, but his line isn't that bad -- he raised PF in hopes of either taking it down or at least getting heads up. He ended up 3-handed and totally airballed the flop. He decided he was done with the hand and checked the flop, intending to fold to a turn bet. But then something weird happened -- both blinds checked again on the turn, and he realized they didn't like their hands much either, so he used his position to take a stab, and the stab worked. He's not going to do that often, so it's okay to show the bluff.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

I don't really see what is wrong with it. This is not a perfect flop to bet on, it's actually a pretty bad one-- there are two big cards out there and a spade draw. It is pretty unlikely both opponents have cards that could not possibly be helped by this flop. There are a lot of hands that would peel a card for a gutshot or have a pair already and aren't folding. I would be amazed if he bet this flop and both opponents folded-- more likely he is going to get called in one or two spots or, if he has been following through with a flop bet a lot, he is going to get check raised. I think he saw this flop, decided that he wasn't going to walk into a check raise and checked behind. Then when his opponents checked to him again, he figured that they actually didn't have anything and bet. Makes sense to me.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

This hand seems similar to this Tommy Angelo hand BK posted eariler.... click me

FWIW, I don't have a solid opinion on the line as I'm currently thinking of places that it is optimal to be more passive than common conviention.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

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He clicks "show" and gives off his bluff...


...but i can't see why he didn't bet that flop?

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Because he bluffs like a pussssee. As it is, its a pretty retarded hand. Bet the flop. Anybody bets the turn hes folding...or bluff raising if thats his flavor.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

The only thing I can see is that this is multiway and it's connected, and an ostensibly blank turn will force a weak ace or king to choose between calling down in a very small pot and expecting seif's odd play to be suspiciously strange to push a fold when they'd both likely call down if he bets the flop. The SB can be likely to have hit the board, even if he is too loose.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

[ QUOTE ]
This hand seems similar to this Tommy Angelo hand BK posted eariler.... click me

FWIW, I don't have a solid opinion on the line as I'm currently thinking of places that it is optimal to be more passive than common conviention.

[/ QUOTE ]

I took what is probably considered an unconventional line here and got the idea of trying it from Tommy's hand.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

The only possible line here if he was thinking is if he knew his opponents would nearly always bet with a A or K and might bet at the turn but would fold to a raise - so he wasn't hoping for c,c,c; c,c,b,f,f - he was hoping for c,c,c; b,c/c,b, r,f and the actual action was indicative of him failing to get an extra bet out of the situation.

But you'd have to know your opponents to try this parlay and if the elements aren't there it isn't a particularly good line unless you just figure check,check means they missed and you can use this opportunity to mix up your game/image without having too much to worry about losing bets.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

Also, if he's showing his bluff that seems to either mean he wants to change/maintain an image with a very odd play - I think whether he'd been running hot or cold, showing down a lot of hands or few hands, would have to be known to try to explain away showing his cards. Still, I'm believing more and more that it's worse to try to create an image than to try to identify the one you have.

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

http://www.edhelms.net/pics/TDSstills/ed586.jpg

Its because he is a puuu-uuuh-saaay. Pussaaaay. He's a pussy, Jon, I cant say it any more clearer than that." -Ed helms

Re: 87s UTG (mark seif)
 

I've used this line against the semi-thinking weak tight opponents in the stars 2/4 before.

It really depends on how the last several dozen hands have been going though.