I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

Villian is 26/13/2. My image is not solid at all, as I've been caught bluffing twice recently. Check on the river was to induce a bluff and save money if I am behind a weak ace or a K.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $15.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

Comments on all streets welcome.

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

He doesn't have a K unless it's something really mysterious. You are right that he almost definitely doesn't have an A. That leaves a 6 with almost definitely a worse kicker or a pair. Or I guess he could have 45 which is basically the only draw. Bet the river.
-James

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is 26/13/2. My image is not solid at all, as I've been caught bluffing twice recently. Check on the river was to induce a bluff and save money if I am behind a weak ace or a K.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $15.
<font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

Comments on all streets welcome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, it looks a lot like you altered this hand history to say 30/60 even though it's a 15/30 game. No biggie, but not really gonna endear you to people here.

Secondly, I think you should bet the river. The CO is a new player, so he isn't that aware of your image. You'd hate for him to have a diamond draw (very likely given his play) and catch a 7 on the river to beat you. If you bet, he'll likely muck a 7. He doesn't need to muck a 7 here all the time for this to be a good bet.

Josh

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with J, 6. CO posts a blind of $15.

[/ QUOTE ]

as jeff pointed out, thats either a converter error, or you changing the stakes for whatever reason.

anyways, not huge. what IS important is that you use your image to your benefit. if ive just run a few unsuccessful bluffs, i will defiantely value bet the [censored] out of weak holdings b/c i get calls w/ tons of hands i wouldn't have if i didn't get caught bluffing.

this is the exact situation you're in. bet the river.

Barron

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

oh yea gerry, NOWWW i get it.

this post should be moved to mid stakes. i'll leave it for now and will give a grace period but if posts like this continue to get posted in high, i'll move them.

i think a grace period is fair though.

Barron

hey Mr. Moderator
 

You do realize you've screwed up the limit forums, dont you? I'd elaborate, but what is the point of me saying anything to you to be taken seriously.......?

You'll give a period of grace? Oh how kind of you, dear sir.


I'm sure that it wasn't all your doing, but, this is impractical and borderline poker supremist, IMO. If certain people want a purely ultra super advanced forum, they should just create one and block posters, but allow readers.

I said I wouldnt elaborate so I'll stop now. (before I get banned again or something silly like that)



Tex

Re: hey Mr. Moderator
 

Am i the only one who does like the flop check raise, co ahs posted and checked, meaning he has a random hand at this stage, why are we assuming he will bet?

I lead the flop and play it from there

Re: hey Mr. Moderator
 

[ QUOTE ]
You do realize you've screwed up the limit forums, dont you? I'd elaborate, but what is the point of me saying anything to you to be taken seriously.......?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i have singlehandedly screwed up the limit forum. one that was here long before you and will continue to be long after you bust out or fail to understand or get sick of the posts here.

[ QUOTE ]


You'll give a period of grace? Oh how kind of you, dear sir.


[/ QUOTE ]

the post was 15/30 and should have been posted in medium stakes. gerry changed the converter to show "30/60." since there was obviously enough motivation for him to try to post the hand here i'll leave it but will, in the future, move such posts to prevent similar attempts. since the forum was recently split, i see nothing wrong with a warning given the action and time it occurred.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm sure that it wasn't all your doing, but, this is impractical and borderline poker supremist, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually it was done to give 15/30 and 20/40 a home. what i mean is a place where people would feel free to post those hands w/o having to feel "bad" or "guilty" about posting in a "high" stakes forum. i put those words in quotations because they come from the discussion that took place before the split. thats right, there was a discussion, a few in fact. there was plenty of "warning." further, this change will take a week or two to iron itself out but in the end WE think its in the best interest of all levels of players. by WE i mean the moderators and admin folks here, not to mention the quality posters on this board, of whom i have talked with a good number and of those with whom i spoke, a vast majority think the split is a good idea.

[ QUOTE ]

If certain people want a purely ultra super advanced forum, they should just create one and block posters, but allow readers.

[/ QUOTE ]

interesting, i wonder how posts would get created if posters were blocked...but good idea!

[ QUOTE ]


I said I wouldnt elaborate so I'll stop now. (before I get banned again or something silly like that)

Tex

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont know why you were banned in the first place but im not overly surprised. either way ive outlined both my thoughts and those expressed previously by others in discussions on these boards. hope it helps.

Barron

Re: hey Mr. Moderator
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You do realize you've screwed up the limit forums, dont you? I'd elaborate, but what is the point of me saying anything to you to be taken seriously.......?

[/ QUOTE ]

yes i have singlehandedly screwed up the limit forum. one that was here long before you and will continue to be long after you bust out or fail to understand or get sick of the posts here.

[ QUOTE ]


You'll give a period of grace? Oh how kind of you, dear sir.


[/ QUOTE ]

the post was 15/30 and should have been posted in medium stakes. gerry changed the converter to show "30/60." since there was obviously enough motivation for him to try to post the hand here i'll leave it but will, in the future, move such posts to prevent similar attempts. since the forum was recently split, i see nothing wrong with a warning given the action and time it occurred.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm sure that it wasn't all your doing, but, this is impractical and borderline poker supremist, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually it was done to give 15/30 and 20/40 a home. what i mean is a place where people would feel free to post those hands w/o having to feel "bad" or "guilty" about posting in a "high" stakes forum. i put those words in quotations because they come from the discussion that took place before the split. thats right, there was a discussion, a few in fact. there was plenty of "warning." further, this change will take a week or two to iron itself out but in the end WE think its in the best interest of all levels of players. by WE i mean the moderators and admin folks here, not to mention the quality posters on this board, of whom i have talked with a good number and of those with whom i spoke, a vast majority think the split is a good idea.

[ QUOTE ]

If certain people want a purely ultra super advanced forum, they should just create one and block posters, but allow readers.

[/ QUOTE ]

interesting, i wonder how posts would get created if posters were blocked...but good idea!

[ QUOTE ]


I said I wouldnt elaborate so I'll stop now. (before I get banned again or something silly like that)

Tex

[/ QUOTE ]

i dont know why you were banned in the first place but im not overly surprised. either way ive outlined both my thoughts and those expressed previously by others in discussions on these boards. hope it helps.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]






I'm simply expressing my opinion, is all. Maybe it was too pointed, it usually is. But the poll indicates I'm not alone, or at least, there are others who feel the way I do. Ask yourself why no one else said anything about it....i.e., all of those (the majority so far) who voted to go back to the way it was, did not give a reply as to why they wanted the forum changed? Do you think it is possible that they didnt want to voice their thoughts for fear of being labeled or flamed? Nah, impossible! Not on 2+2 !!!! Disagreeing with the hierarchy around here.......????
I'll stay quiet until some more time has passed and we have the opportunity so see just how the split really works.

As for your comment about going broke, not understanding, and whatever else you said that I dont really care to repeat..... people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones, Barron.





Tex

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
oh yea gerry, NOWWW i get it.

this post should be moved to mid stakes. i'll leave it for now and will give a grace period but if posts like this continue to get posted in high, i'll move them.

i think a grace period is fair though.

Barron

[/ QUOTE ]

Entirely correct, I changed this one to 30/60 because I was interested in responses from the usual crowd of MH players.

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't have a K unless it's something really mysterious. You are right that he almost definitely doesn't have an A. That leaves a 6 with almost definitely a worse kicker or a pair. Or I guess he could have 45 which is basically the only draw. Bet the river.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I agree with betting the river. Since I have a crappy image and the diamonds missed, why not check to induce a bluff?

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't have a K unless it's something really mysterious. You are right that he almost definitely doesn't have an A. That leaves a 6 with almost definitely a worse kicker or a pair. Or I guess he could have 45 which is basically the only draw. Bet the river.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I agree with betting the river. Since I have a crappy image and the diamonds missed, why not check to induce a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

its BECAUSE of your crappy image that you should bet. he will check behind marginal hands (lower pairs/high cards) that will likely call if you bet putting you on a draw

by checking you give up value given your image and the action.

Barron

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

Possibly. I will think about this.

I was actually going to CR the river on this hand.

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Possibly. I will think about this.

I was actually going to CR the river on this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is silly gerry.

think about it. what does that accomplish?

given your image you might get called by high cards or low pair if you bet, but if you check behind and he bets the range of his hands narrows greatly and is very likely better than yours. if you now raise you have to fold to a 3 bet and are definately beaten when called.

Barron

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He doesn't have a K unless it's something really mysterious. You are right that he almost definitely doesn't have an A. That leaves a 6 with almost definitely a worse kicker or a pair. Or I guess he could have 45 which is basically the only draw. Bet the river.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I agree with betting the river. Since I have a crappy image and the diamonds missed, why not check to induce a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't have any image, he just posted in the CO.
-James

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

I know it's silly. I wasn't playing well, and I posted this hand to confirm it somewhat. Much of my thinking was wrong here I think. Sometimes you just don't have the mojo I guess.

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

For what it is worth, I like how you played the hand. I might have check raised the flop. The fear however is getting raised on the turn not knowing where you are except likley beat. With this tight of a player who is prob incapable of making these plays, you might then have to c/r the flop and fold to a raise on the turn. The river is a borderline value bet. Without him seeing your previous bluffs I'd play it as you did otherwise push your small edge.

Brian R.

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

There's no need to worry about your image when your opponent just posted.

Your plan of checking to induce a bluff is ok, but you probably won't save any money if he does have an ace. Personally, I like betting since he didn't raise preflop the way so many people would with an ace, and there are lots of weaker hands that might call but not bet.

I just don't find that "inducing bluffs" works often enough to make up the value bets missed. This line where the agressor the whole hand sudenly checks the river is just a mediocre hand trying to get to showdown so often that many people don't bluff that spot. After watching people check down hopeless hands, and call with hopeless hands, I've stopped inducing bluffs and just value bet everything out of position.

-Eric

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

Hi Josh,

I like a bet too, but think that folding a 7 is not a very good reason to bet. Few players fold pairs on the river heads up, especially when they just caught. It's just too tough to improve your hand on the river only to fold for 1 more bet.

It will be rare that he actually caught a 7, and rarer still that, having done so, he will fold. Perhaps these folds add some tiny fraction to your EV, but it's negligible. You bet hoping to be called by a weaker hand, not really to fold a better one.

-Eric

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

Obviously the chance of him hitting a 7 is remote.

And, I concur that people don't yearn to fold pairs heads up on the river. But the random 15-30 opponent is somewhat more likely to do this than the random 100-200 opponent.

I guess my overall point is that:

1.) Bet, they may fold
and
2.) Bet, they may call

both have merits.

Josh

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
its BECAUSE of your crappy image that you should bet. he will check behind marginal hands (lower pairs/high cards) that will likely call if you bet putting you on a draw

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this an easy fold to a raise? Obviously a river raise usually means strength, but I wonder if some players in these spots wait til the river to bluffraise or raise with a worse hand (3's or a weaker 6) trying to make a move on the LAG. This assumes the CO is aware of hero's LAGgy image.

I seem to have a hard time bet/folding the river when making a thin value bet.

Re: I just don\'t think he has an ace ... how to play it?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Obviously the chance of him hitting a 7 is remote.

And, I concur that people don't yearn to fold pairs heads up on the river. But the random 15-30 opponent is somewhat more likely to do this than the random 100-200 opponent.

I guess my overall point is that:

1.) Bet, they may fold
and
2.) Bet, they may call

both have merits.

Josh

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that both add to your EV. I'd suggest that "bet, they may call" dominates the equation though, while "bet, they may fold" is all you mentioned in your post. I think you probably already knew that your bet is mostly for value and just didn't mention it in your original post, choosing to focus on the more subtle point.

thanks,
Eric